Hi all,

New to the Decware forums, but after reading about their products for a while now and I'm very interested in the Torii MK III or IV amplifier.

I'm looking at running the amp in a two-channel vinyl system with a Sutherland Ph3D battery-powered phono stage. This stage has no controls other than internal jumpers to adjust gain and impedance, so I'd be reliant on the Torii's "volume" control.
Is anyone else using a Torii without a traditional preamp per se?
I've read that most prefer the sound straight out of the amp, so would I be OK with this set up?
Also, I bought an audiophile iPod 30-pin to RCA cable so my girlfriend can play ALAC files. Would this be OK in the system as well?
Also, I'm running Harbeth P3ESR speakers that have a 83.5 dB rating, but present a very easy 6-ohm load, and since I know that even 10w SET amps (Audio Note Oto) have driven this speaker to very respectable volume levels, I'm hoping the Torii's 25 watts would fare even better?
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated, TIA.
–Rafe

What size is your room?
Have you ever checked spl levels with a meter when listening?

R, welcome! We were talking about this on another forum.

I think the Torii may struggle with speakers of that efficiency, but one never know do one? (as Fats Waller used to say).

My best advice? Give Steve Deckert a call. He loves to talk to potential customers and customers and he knows more than we'll ever know about these amps and what they can do with what. . . .

Hi guys,

Yes, that is my system.
As for carts I'm looking at the Audio Technica AT33-EV, the Sutherland will do 60 dB of gain.
The Sonneteer is only 33 watts, but it is a very sweet, transparent and well-controlled 33 watts (44 into 6 ohms, which is what my Harbeths are).
I have some hardcore audiophile friends running the Harbeth P3s with the Audio Note Oto SE and PP (10 watts) and swear by it, which is why I was thinking the Torii might really have the juice at 25 watts.
I'm really looking to get into the glorious 3D tube sound (did quite a bit of listening to Harbeth M40.1s with an Audio Note M8 preamp – HEAVEN!) and from everything I'm hearing in various audiophile forums I frequent, the Torii should have the mustard.
IS the sound stage, imaging and bass control all that I'm reading?

Raferx fwiw, I'm a harbeth fan.  I have a set of p3ESR's and as much as I like them, in my room, I greatly prefer my Decware and Omega setup.  There is a real synergy between low watt set amps and high efficiency speakers that I just haven't been able to match using conventional components.  I could be wrong, but I do wonder if the Torii would be the way to go if you really want to stick with Harbeths.

Hi Raferx,

First, here's some thoughts I posted on another forum:

I converted to a Single Drive Low Watt setup last year. Mentally it was a big step and truthfully, I don't think I could have done it if I hadn't gotten a chance to hear this approach before I took the plunge. After having lived with my setup now, I'm a total convert.

What I get with my SET and single driver setup is a speed, coherency and a very unbox like sound with the best soundstaging and imaging capabilities of any speakers I've owned. I have two systems set up, besides my Omega Decware system, I have another that I rotate Kef LS50's and Harbeth P3ESR's in and out of. I have to say, it's hard to listen to the Kefs and Harbeths after listening to the Omegas. Both sound slow, boxy and very discontinuous. It's like you can hear the transition from the midrange to the tweeter and I sometimes hear an odd phasiness (for lack of a better word) with those speakers that the Omegas don't have. It's common for two way speakers to have the tweeters wired out of phase with the woofers and both the Kefs and Harbeths are designed this way. It's possible that I can now hear this after living with the Omegas. Before I owned the Omegas, I NEVER  heard these colorations on the Kefs or Harbeths and if someone told me these speakers had them, I'd think that they had their systems set up wrong.  Now they jump out at me instantly. When listening to the Omegas I am often reminded of the sound I used to get with some Magnepans I used to have.  It's a very open sound.

That said, I can understand where the single driver concept isn't for everyone. Shortcomings of my system and I can easily live with them is that the sound ultimately isn't as big or with the impact of traditional speakers. After all, this is a single small driver and at the end of the day, it's not going to move as much air as a big multi way system. For me, it's not an issue, but for others, I could understand how it could be. I know some people play their music quite loud and for those folks, I'm sure some of them would miss some of the big sound you get from multiple driver setups.

Also, ultimate bass response is limited. According to my SPL meter, in my room, my Omega's start to roll off right at 60hz. I'm not a bass freak so it's not a big deal and there are other single driver speakers with larger drivers so as you move up in driver size, this could become less of an issue.

Don't get me wrong, my system will play loud and with impact, but if you are the type of person that blasts Midnight Oil with 100db+ peaks, you'll notice that they don't have the slam that a comparable well designed two way with bigger drivers has.

As far as music styles, I'm all over the place. Basically everything except for hardcore rap and heavy metal.

Okay, now to try and give some comparisons to the P3's.  First of all, this is in a room that's relatively small at 12x11 feet.  The room is treated with panels and bass traps.  Like most small speakers the Harbeths have the typical bass hump in the 100 -200 range.  At the same time, the Omegas are actually a little depressed in the same range so this is what you'd first notice.  I've confirmed this with SPL measurements.  Remember though, the room is as important as a component as anything and if your room is different than mine, things won't be the same.

Ultimately, the Harbeths probably will play louder and I'd say that when you get up in the top of the high frequency range, the Harbeths are better.  I've always thought that the tweeter in the Harbeths was exceptionally refined sounding.  At the end of the day, what will really tip you one way or the other will be how your ear reacts to that midbass area between 100 -200hz.

For me, it's much easier going from the room I have my Harbeths in to my SET system.  When I turn the SET system on, I feel like my ears are relaxing and it just sounds right.  When I go from the SET system to the Harbeths, the sound just feels heavier and slower.  It can take an hour or two before my ears kind of readjust but I still always feel like they just aren't doing things as well as the Omegas.

Harbeths are nice though and I've heard some of their bigger speakers as well.  There definitely is a house sound to them and out of all the small conventional speakers I've owned, they are my favorites.  My favorite amp with them was  Musical Fidelity M3i, but I never heard them with a tube amp more powerful than a few watts, so I'm just not sure what that kind of combination would tease out of the system.  FWIW, I've spoken to the guy (Louis) who makes Omegas and he's actually met Allan Shaw, the Harbeth designer.  Louis has told me that he admires the P3 and it's actually his favorite of the Harbeth designs.  

Last thing...their is some sort of magic synergy between these low watt amps and high efficiency speakers.  If I put the Omegas in the system that I run the Harbeths in, it's a toss up.  The magic of the Omegas is diminished and they lose some of their dimensionality and refinement so if you go to something like a high efficiency speaker, you really should take a system approach to it.

Good luck with your decision!

Hi Lon,

I think giving Steve a call is great advice, many thanks

–Rafe

Hey Seikosha,

Very interesting, and well thought-out response, thanks for that man.
Also interesting that you are running Harbeths and LS50s, as my father runs the KEFs and we sometimes swap them out for listening sessions on our respective amps/sources (he's a CD/FLAC guy), I'm all vinyl.

While I really like the LS50s, I find them fatiguing compared to the P3s (YMMV), so I'm quite curious to hear a very efficient speaker again (I used to have Klipsch Heresy IIs) but it's been a couple years and I didn't really have my ears "trained" or "broken-in" to what true hi fi sound was. Since then I've spent a lot of time listening to a fair number of high-end systems with either audiophile LP remasters or 24/192 high-res FLAC recordings... always a work in progress, but at least I can say my ears have taste up to this point, and I'm hoping to improve.

The Decware gear is fascinating to me as I've never taken a hard look at tube amps and 90dB+ speakers with a critical eye, so it's quite an awakening to consider the synergy between the two and the state of mind/philosophy behind it.

The P3s are really amazing me, and the M30.1s really put my hair straight back (want them next), so I'm hesitant, because to think that if I go the tube route that Harbeth might not work really puts a kink in my upgrade path... that said, the road less travelled, etc.

If my friends running Audio Note SETs into P3s swear by them, I think I need to make the trip (several hours by car and ferry) and hear their systems for myself before I commit to anything.

If a 10w Oto SE can make the Harbeth's sing, then I owe it to myself to hear it, because the Torii at 25w should really knock me out.

Since I listen mostly to jazz and vocal (90 per cent), folk, folk-rock (Wizz Jones!) some classic rock, a pinch of electronic and classical, the Harbeth's really hit it out of the park for me, so I don't know if I could forfeit their timbral accuracy for speed, and transient attack.

I'm also actively looking at Audio Note & Croft gear, (which is tube/SS hybrid) and very well reviewed. I love my Sonneteer, but a little more "oomph" is called for I believe, and my tube friends in Victoria at Soundhounds say SET is the way to go for huge sound stage, 3D/timbral accuracy and real bass.

I love the look and vibe of the Decware gear, and this forum is great. Just seems like a real laid back company and attitude where the sound comes first, and that's what it's all about for me.

Time for a glass of wine.

Cheers
–R

IME the "math" never works out.

Rafe has used a 33 watt amp with good results, so the Torii with 25 watts should be fine.

I'll be the first to admit that the "math" is nothing more than allowing you to get a feel for the listening levels one could achieve, and not to be used as absolute.  So many variables.  If you know you will want to crank 100+dB sound levels and the chart suggests you're more in the 85dB realm, you may need to rethink.  The relationship of volume to wattage is a fact you can't get around however.  Jumping up another 3dB of volume does require you to double the wattage.  Achieving another 10dB requires 10 times the wattage.  This is why 1000 watt amps aren't as massive as they might seem.  They will only push 10dB more than a 100 watt amp.  The real value of extra wattage overhead has more to do with covering dynamic spikes than steady listening levels.

The first time I heard a Torii MK III (a friend's amp) on my system I was floored by how good the bass was.  The Torii MK IV that I have doesn't have the range of bass control the III allowed, but the bass is very high quality, better than two different $5k SS amps I've had in the past.  I've never read any account from Torii owners of bass dissapointment.  

Tube choice plays quite a roll as well as to the quality of bass.  The stock 6922 tubes shipped with my Torii actually produce more bass output, but thicker sounding than NOS Telefunkens that I run normally.  I prefer the Teles for the cleaner sound top to bottom.  It's great to be able to tailor the sound to your liking.