LR,
You might know this and I know it has been mentioned in one of the thread here but run Fidelizer on your computer. It turns off all the extras you don't need. You can pick different modes to run, and I run the extreme one. The laptop I have is not hooked up to anyting and is only for music so don't have to worry about viruses or such things.

Most of our suggestions have to do with reducing electronic noise and potential effects on the digital data itself. A cable from your computer to DAC carries noise along with digital data. Thus the concern about noise makers...a spinning drive or USB circuit, or noise getting to the USB chip in the DAC, or power supply.....

Better memory play keeps the drive quieter when you have a spinning drive like I do, so enough memory is important. Also opening only Audirvana, leaving the drive and memory as little to do otherwise as possible. Set the preferences for Audirvana to dominate the computer, limiting unnecessary system stuff.

Also noise related, for many DACs the USB cable makes a big difference, and if the DAC USB chip gets its 5v from the computer, this can be another area to isolate with a linear USB power supply. A point of good USB cables is to get the digital data through with the least interference from electronic noise, and to reduce the transmission of noise.

A lot of people who have looked really closely at this (if not using a dedicated server that is tweaked for you) have decided that the Mac Mini is the best stock computer for music, and not by intention from Apple necessarily. The heavy aluminum case, used for quiet/fanless heat dissipation reduces fan noise, and also reduces vibration, a killer for all audio stuff. It also uses all quality circuits to reduce heat, and cooler circuit parts are less noisy in general. Also, Apple figured out that using better parts causes less warranty issues, so less physical and phone support.

Even so I use vibration reducing feet, and weight on the Mini, and I could hear things get deeper and more solid when I did this. I isolated the USB power to the DAC with a USB power supply...big difference with my particular DAC, though orangecrush, who I trust the way he listens, had no effect on his DAC with the same unit. Presumably his DAC is somehow using clean power to the USB chip.

I use an external Firewire drive known to be quiet for music files, also being a separate buss from the DAC USB, reducing electronic noise. And more subtle, but if your system is very revealing, you can even hear different commercial FW cables...again, presumably electronic noise or not...also vibration reduction helps a little on the drive.

I use all uncompressed AIFF files ripped with error correction by an app called XLD.

Audirvana has never suited me...it sounds a little colored to me, an interpretation of "analog." But most people really like it. With Audirvana and Pure Music, I prefer to use iTunes as interface and library since it is a standard no matter how the player apps change. And these apps take over the player and library functions, so it is mostly just a convenient interface as far as I know.

But finally, if you get a computer totally worked out, I suppose it is possible that you will still like the PWT the way it is cabled, voiced etc. An optimized computer setup will give you clean file data, but it seems possible that the unaffected files will not sound as good to you as the way the PWT pulls data and transfers it.

To test your computer I would first check the Audirvana preferences and make sure all is set well. And check around on computeraudiophile or other forums to see if your DAC is one that benefits from a good USB cable and/or a USB power supply. But remember all the guys addicted to saying cables don't matter will likely be part of the equation, so you have to dig. The 1's and 0's argument is simply not true if your system is revealing and you can hear well. Even many of the bigtime DAC companies, using ASYNC and other means of cleaning the stuff from the USB cable will recommend quality USB cables. I would be very surprised if a good cable would not help, and this could be a primary difference from the PWT the way it is cabled. Also, after getting these sorted, compare it on battery versus plugged in just to see. If you have a backup Firewire or Thunderbolt drive, it could be good to hear a few tracks fed from it using an alternate port from the DAC. Or if you just have USB, an external drive still could help.

And finally, this is a whole other thing, but something to keep in the back of the mind if you end up liking a computer...EQ

With Pure Music, it is easy to set up very sophisticated EQ if you want to, in effect digitally mastering your collection for your system/room. I started using this to cut low bass I could not get with the bass traps I have. But later started measuring the room, and adjusting across teh spectrum, and this has become a main reason for me to use a computer.

If purism is to get the most from your system, this can be an amazing tool. If purism is to instead EQ entirely with room treatment, gear, tubes and cables....all of these will shift the EQ and resolution, but to "get there" completely by these means is a lot of work in most rooms.

I have done all that, and adding low-key EQ in the right places to fine-tune, at least if your room does not need crazy amounts of EQ to help it, it notches up the whole to quite another level transparently. By evening up bumps and valleys the benefits to the sound can be pretty amazing, especially with really minor tastes tweaks added for flavor.

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Yeah, I tried it on my Windows 8.1 machine, and it didn't seem to do much of anything. It did cause a problem with JRiver, but seemed to work ok with Foobar...or I should say, didn't seem to damage anything since I really didn't notice anything different. I was going to give it another run after my listening session thats planned for this Wednesday - especially since I'm looking at trying Server 2012 in Core mode.

Will, thanks for the tips - sounds like lots of common sense stuff I'd be considering anyways. I read up on the Computer Audiophile CAPS builds, and learned a lot about the various parts that are out there. I saw some neat stuff I might try out in my mini-PC, or maybe even be inspired to build my own fanless PC.

This is the power supply I got - it's in a little bit of rough shape, but it's a good price for a $500, 18# (variable) linear power supply with 4 amps on tap. That should be able to power any Mini-PC or laptop I try.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141347902256

Dave, we're using the same transport and HDMI cable. You're going to be very happy if you upgrade to the DirectStream. Today it's impressing me yet again as it makes a difficult release to sit back enjoy. . . sitback enjoyable.

Dave said : "The latter attribute is a bit more difficult to describe, but it often manifests itself in toe tapping and an engaging listening experience.  ....  I also enjoy listening to albums from start to finish.  

I think engaging is normal with a good setup. If we are using good stuff, and it is not there, we just need to find it. If music is edgy, without "fluid," liquidity, smoothness....AND complex detail.... it is not likely to be convincing musical presentation. Without that, how could it make us tap our toes? Point being, though you have great synergy now with your well cabled transport, it is very likely not your transport (alone) that makes it sound like music....there are a lot of us without it who have very engaging music.

I like to listen to albums too, but I love being able to uncheck tunes I don't prefer in an album in the iTunes interface.

I have the PWT hooked up to the PWD via I2S, and am using the PSA pure silver HDMI cable (AC-12 HDMI).  Arguably, the HDMI cable is high quality.

Pretty convincing indicator that good cables help your playback with the PWD.

That said, I am very much interested in computer audio and can see the many benefits of such a system.  I also like to experiment and try new things, and getting a computer setup for audio seemed like an interesting side project.  So I began the journey with a MacBook Pro (maybe not the best starting point) and I use the PWT as my reference.  One of the things I tried early on was a couple different software programs (Audirvana, BitPerfect, Amarra).  I was actually surprised how different they all sounded."

Though it may not be the very best, your Macbook Pro is a really well made, and a small computer needing efficiency for battery use and to remain cool. Both require quality, quiet parts. I bet you can get really good sound from it. Audirvana to me is seductive at first, but finally it sounds a little like it does everything it is supposed to just right, but somehow it ends up sounding like technically accomplished sweetness and detail to me rather than like music. PureMusic is my favorite player software, but who knows. And had I spent as much time as I have with Pure Music tuning and adjusting to Audirvana, I might well feel differently.

I think you said it. They all sound so different. All this points to potentially adjusting the Player software filters or EQ (if you have Audirvana+) and/or those on the DAC and see if you can get to where you like it.

I don't know the best USB cables going for the money now. The DBAudio Essential is great with the Tranquility, but I preferred a WireWorld Starlite on the ZDAC. This looks like a real deal http://www.tweekgeek.com/demo-wireworld-platinum-starlight-6-usb-a-to-b-3-meter/... And Tweekgeek typically has 30 day no question return. Could be worth a try.

Dialing in my Linear PSU -






On the plus side - it looks way better than the eBay photos, and runs well!

On the minus side - it hums  I totally forgot to even consider that. If I hear any sonic improvement, and don't want to upgrade to an "Audiophile PSU" or battery, I'll probably re-chassis this in something nice and heavy, made out of wood and metal.

Will...I was just about to say the same thing to you...  I haven't evaluated these different software programs in a while, and Pure Music wasn't included in my initial evaluation, so I am going to download the demo and evaluate it.

I am committed to getting a computer source sounding as good as the PWT (I don't think that was clear in my initial post).  I wasn't trying to say that I couldn't get an equal/better experience with the computer, simply that I hadn't so far.   I realize many have achieved equal/better sound vs. a transport and have never looked back.  

That said, I do think it's a bit more complicated with computers because they weren't designed with audio as the single objective, and there are a lot of variables for the end user to consider/tweak.      

Reading up on CAPS has been interesting.  

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/section/c-p-s-489/

Computers designed specifically for audio...sounds like a great idea!

It appears that the DS is getting above average press for a new piece of gear.  Maybe I am out of touch with 'review reality' though.  

Kana...how is your DS breaking in?  Any new insights to share?  

LR...that power supply looks crazy!  It appears you know what you are doing though.  I think I read somewhere that folks were using an inexpensive power supply from Red Wine Audio for their CAPS, but inexpensive is a relative term.

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Yeah, it's really some industrial/lab power supply - it's a steal for what I paid for it. I'm just hoping it's as clean of a signal as a fancy audiophile power supply. The Red Wine is like $1200, so yeah, inexpensive is relative - but something like that is on my radar, especially now that I'm rather stunned by how much this PSU made a difference.

So a brief update - After initially being bowled over by such a grand change, I did go back and measure out my speakers and realign them with a laser (yes, I'm totally serious). One speaker did get bumped considerably, but I don't think it's enough to justify the change in bass. Getting the speakers back in line actually helped tighten up the bass a bit, but it was still huge.

So next step was to listen for a track or two...which turned into about a dozen tracks. The sound was so interesting and different I just kept rolling tracks, completely forgetting to A/B the power supplies. When I finally remembered what I was doing, I picked Deft Punk's Doin' It Right which is bass heavy, dynamic, has some neat reverb FX, and is already a little edgy on the high end. Basically all the things that I noticed an immediate change with the big industrial linear PSU.

So I switched back to the stock 19v 3.34A "brick" PSU (this mini-PC is basically the guts of a laptop in a metal box, with no screen, so this PSU is a laptop brick) - and suddenly the sound went a bit flat. The bass didn't punch as hard or feel like it was as tight. The reverb ambiance was much shorter. It was still as clear and detailed as the DS is expected to be, but it lost a little focus. The stock PSU also reduced the edgy etching of the high end...in fact, at one point with the  Linear PSU, one track I put on sounded exactly like that etched high end that my Oppo has, but with the added DS detail.

As I've said before, I'm a big skeptic and everything needs to prove itself in my system. Most cable/power/IC changes to me are very slight changes, and not always improvements. I'm pretty skeptical that a linear PSU would make such a difference since the computer is just passing "bit-perfect" bits down the pipe. As long as those bits get to their destination unmolested, it's the DAC that makes the difference. That's how it looks on paper and how the "math guys" say the world runs. But I'll be damned if this isn't a *big* difference to me - like big enough that I could say 4-5% difference which is huge for just swapping out a PSU.

I'm going to have to talk to some guys smarter than me to help me wrap my head around this. I understand the concept I guess, the PSU doesn't inject noise, or if it does it does it in a different way (which would explain the high end edginess I'm hearing). If there is less noise then I guess that would make blacker backgrounds which would make the voices and instruments seem louder (just thinking out loud now), allow me to hear the reverb even better than what the DirectStream does on it's own (which is an amazing accomplishment). But I feel like there is something else going on there that I'm not grasping.

Ok, enough rambling - we have a listening session going on tonight - we'll see what the other listeners think. I'll probably also ping Ted at the PSA forums and see if he can help me wrap my head around this.

Wow, coming from him, that's some high praise!

Here is Ted Smith's response to my PSU upgrade and what I'm hearing:

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Interesting k. My DirectStream has a much bigger wide open sound than the PWD Mk II--not from the start but after a few days. And like the Mk II, no hiss at all (direct into the amp). Methinks something is amiss with the one you have.

First, the input sensitivity on my REF 75 is 1.4V for full rated power. It only has balanced non-inverting inputs at 300K ohms.

I've read other reports of hiss from people using amps with low input sensitivity.

In addition to the hiss, if I muted the DS and powering down my amp, I'd got strange noise from my speakers, which never happened with the PWD or Pandora. This issue troubled me more than the hiss.

I called PSA tech support this morning . They told me to try putting the DS into standby before powering down my amp. That solved that noise issue.

Obviosly, the DS mute function works differently than the PWD and  Pandora. It does not control the output relays, which you can clearly hear when you put the DS into standby or hit the filter button on the remote.


Right out of the box, the Pandora soundstage was much bigger in all direction and more open sounding than my PWD Mk II.

Lon,

I'm still hoping the the DS will get better.

I really liked the PWD MKII/Bridge combo. No extra box, USB cable or power cable.

Lon,

Have you listened to any HiRez recordings on your DS?

How would you like a DVD-R with 24/96 Art Davis and Canonball Adderley tracks or John Coltrane- Kind of Blue?

If so, send me a PM with your address.

Not a lot to report (despite the long post here) but we had our DAC comparison session last night.  We were hindered somewhat in that we had some technical difficulties, Raven wasn’t feeling great and I was tired, but I think we established at least some baselines to which future comparisons could be made.

The DS and the Chord QuteHD are both FPGA DACs.  The QuteHD is about 1/3 the cost of the DS but reportedly punches above its weight class.  It has limited input/output options, but can play most file resolutions out there today.  It’s tiny and looks like it’s nothing more than a power brick for the DS.

We had to run different signal paths.  The DS came directly off the media mini-PC Eric had set up and went to the ZMA through balanced interconnects.  The PC was also on a linear power supply.   The Chord was fed via the network drive to the Oppo which passed the signal through to the Chord via SPDIF.  Unfortunately, my linear power supply did not arrive yet, so I was running the stock wall wart power supply.

We could not get the Chord drivers installed correctly to allow both DACs to run off the mini-PC.  The PC saw the Chord DAC as a properly functioning device, but the DAC would not show up as an output option in Fubar.  I don’t have this issue on the Mac mini at home so it was perplexing and also limited our music to 24/192 or below.  No DSD comparisons.

We also had issues with matching volume levels.  The Chord outputs 3V and was very loud on the ZMA so we had to manually turn it down to try to match the DS.  We generally got it in the ballpark and said good enough (although Raven did break out the SPL meter).

On the first three songs, I felt the DACs were pretty well matched.  Eric
thought the highs on the Chord were softer/smoothed?  (help me here, Eric).  I felt the Chord was more dynamic, but wasn’t sure because of the early issues with volume matching.  Also, I felt the Chord painted more of a landscape of sound versus the DS produced a more precision placement of instruments in the sound stage.

It was interesting to note that when we switched the DS over to RCA output to the ZMA, it sounded flat compared the Chord.  We only listened to one song this way, but it’s worth noting the lift the DS gets with XLR.

We listened to some other songs and in some cases, didn’t do a direct A/B comparison, but the songs were familiar to the Raven, so maybe he can comment.  I think he felt they sounded good, but not as good as he remembered on the DS.

The song that seemed to really separate the DACs was Michael Jackson’s Billie Jean.  This is a great song for judging bass, PRat and separation of instruments.  The DS really shined here with bass that was significantly tighter.  The DS had better instrument separation and you could hear more details in the track.  Great PRat which had us both grooving (now that’s a sight).  I thought the song sounded OK on the Chord and had pretty good PRaT, but on the DS, I felt the same way the last time I heard it on Raven’s system – this is what this song is supposed to sound like or the way the engineer intended it.  Between the two DACs, it literally sounded like two different versions of the same song.

I was pretty impressed with the price/performance ratio of the Chord until we tested Billie Jean.   Raven said the Chord provided 80% of the DS SQ overall.  I thought it was much closer on the initial tracks.  On Billie Jean I thought it was 60-70%.  Big difference.

On our next comparison, I will have my linear power supply which is really supposed to lift the Chord and hopefully we can run off the same computer.

I'm tellin' you Lon, you'd have been grooving too!

I'm not ready to say run out and get the Chord if you don't have the cash for a DS just yet, but we'll see.  So far, its been fun for me and lifted the performance of my system.

Palomino,

Sorry to hear about the computer issue and having to use such different signal paths. Those difficulties are so frustrating. Raven's new computer power supply so wildly changing the DS output in his system alone is notable.... I hope you can get them through the same system next time. The changes as I adapt Audirvana in my system after years of Pure Music is daunting enough for me. And that difference is only between relatively long established and competitive player software!

I look forward to stories from your future music events. I agree with Lon, you guys are lucky!

Will,

I can send you my Audirvana settings to try.  I got them off a post, but don't remember where it was.

I will be interested in your thoughts on the Chord Stone.  I think it needs the power supply for the low end.  I should get it today so I can comment this weekend.

Yeah, I really felt like crap last night...had a weird headache that made it hard to concentrate, and Palo was obviously tired, so we had trouble figuring out the simplest stuff..I'm sure we would have been funny to watch us fumbling around, trying to figure out the best way to A/B the gear, match volumes, load drivers, swap cables. So we're really going to have to do this again on a better night for both of us. I also had no internet as we had power and internet issues in my neighborhood, so I couldn't look up solutions to our Chord DAC/Media PC problem.

To add to what was said above - I was really impressed with the Chord. I didn't hear the expansive soundstage that Palo heard since I wasn't in the (very narrow MG944) sweetspot. But there was once or twice where a sound would jump out way beyond the speakers, which was impressive from where I was sitting.

The chord had a silkiness to vocals that I liked, and everything was slightly more "musical" than the DS. IMHO, I guess that means a little more rounded and warmer. we listened to ELP Lucky Man, and the vocals were very silky and the sound filled the room. Played on the DS immediately after, and the cymbals came alive, the sinths had that buzzy grit that early synths are known for, and the vocals suddenly had a texture (maybe a little too much texture due to the new Linear PSU adding some hash or something to my high end). I hate to admit it, but the Chord kept up to the DS is many ways, just not in vocal/instrument separation, detail, or that finite timing that the attention to reduced jitter get you. That's what I feel keeps the DS in a league above the Chord QuteHD.  

That said, I'm betting this, or any of the Chord DACs with aftermetket PSU would get so much closer to the DS. If I didn't have the DS, I would seriously consider the Chord DACs. (due to cost difference). If I wanted the ultimate, I'd still go for DirectStream

I'm still very happy with the DS - again, the only thing I'm unhappy about still, is the lack of voltage on the output. The ZMA really needs that voltage to drive its input, and without a preamp, the DS constantly seemed like it was less dynamic than the Chord with its better output voltage.

So we'll both work on our Linear PSU solutions, and see what we can come up with. I'll also figure out how to get the Chord to show up in Foobar so we can do a better A/B comparo. Only other thing that would help, is probably a preamp that allows us to do the db matching automatically and give me equal drive to the ZMA. That, unfortunately, isn't going to happen any time soon.

Sounds like a rough time in the great midwest!

LR,

Thanks for your update.

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I don't know Raven...with this level of transparency, I suspect any pre would change the sound enough to make comparisons pretty tricky also. To keep my DAC voltage from distorting the Zstage I tried those gold RCA attenuator plugs. I could hear even them enough that I attenuated my DAC from inside the software player instead. It was more transparent, at least at only several dB attenuation.

Though a pain in the butt and not perfect, I think volume matching the ZMA, or perhaps better, the core software volume might give a fairly accurate comparison.


Palomino,

I would appreciate your sending your Audirvana settings. I have tried lots of settings variations, and they all make a difference, so hopefully your combination might work here. After many hours of exploring, I can get really sophisticated sound, but still am having a hard time getting it to make music sound as real as I am accustomed to.

Interesting note from Paul McG on his Mac-Mini during a discussion of USB cables -

Quote:

Palomino,

Do you know how to find that Mini setup post you speak of?

Paul's post:

For me to learn anything, context and details are pretty critical. Paul's post is like a lot of his posts, relatively strong on opinion or suggestion, and relatively vague on details. Besides software, we don't know how his Mini is set up. Also, he carefully developed the PWT, his tastes a big player no doubt. His other gear was designed likewise with his tastes. And presumably, he is making this evaluation in his room, also to his tastes. So it would be surprising to me if the PWT, especially with other PSAudio gear, did not sound extra good under these conditions.

Within this, the PWT and PWD or DS are very likely to be an exceptional combination if one is in agreement with the PSaudio sound.

All that said, he may have the Mini ideally optimized, and we might agree with his opinion given the chance to listen, but we don't know.

From the PS Audio website, here are DS Designer Ted Smith's comments about JA measurements in the September issue of Stereophile:

"I'm glad JA found that weird distortion of the lowest few bits.  I indeed did have an outright bug in the FPGA.  It's not serious enough to do a separate release of the FPGA for, but the fix will be in the next FPGA release when ever that is.

I was expecting the noise floor measurement, but I'd rather JA used a different word than resolution to describe it.  Clearly the DAC is resolving signals below the noise floor…

As JA said the center spike in the jitter test is quite narrow and also as he says his normal way of measuring jitter isn't as revealing in the presence of this much noise.  But even so that jitter test doesn't make sense for this input topology: very little of the output jitter in the DS comes from the jitter in the input waveforms.  An extremely fast and accurate scope doing eye patterns would probably be needed to get a good measurement of the jitter.

Like the Stereophile measurements of the Playback Designs DAC these measurements don't seem to capture the essence of DSD DACs.  Doing a DSD dac this way gets a very accurate output (linearity, fidelity to the input waveform) but not so precise of an output (bits of precision.)"