6 feet out does seem pretty clear of the walls. Sounds like a difficult setup indeed, and intuition needs attention!

My 944s are not a perfect reference as I have modified them so the mid-bass and low bass are less resonant and dominant in the balance, revealing more upper-mid to high information. This did wake up the image though. As far as my experiments have shown, this area in balance determines subtle definition throughout, (including bass definition) and thus imaging potential. When the mid to upper info is missing or masked too much, it seems the image just can't come out fully.

It is good to hear the DS has increased your depth. I found this also, if the source brings out more fine detail musically, it improves the image while being more engaging. Along with room considerations, I think this illustrates the solution.

This room is very wide, and not too difficult in that way. The speakers are close to symmetrical given that the room opens in various ways on the right side being a small T rather than a capital L. The image of the modded 944s (with low EQ cut) was deep, wide and saturated, player placement and space around them clear. I could not identify the speakers as having sound coming from them. With big space recordings, the image was as much as 30 feet wide and as deep as 15-20 for the actual players, and boundless for ambience. Singers or horn players were clear in location and height, only moving when they moved in relation to their mic. Deep bass, now moderated to fit this space was felt in the body with natural sound.

The HR-1s, also needed to be modified similarly for me, in this room. They did change my sound...more refined, but not so much the imaging. This could be well be this room and arrangement though.

The modded MG944s in another room, the sound is warmer and image a little dreamy, but wide, deep, and saturated also. Sometimes when I hear this drum or that rattle or bell it shocks me it is so of itself in space. I am running a Rega Apollo to a Blue Torii with a ZSTAGE there, and no EQ to the modded 944s. The bass is strong, but quite good with that amp, and a bit domineering with the MKIII, but it images well there too. That room is not treated except by the chance of design, and darker than this one, but nice. Both rooms have ICs and speaker cables that do not smear or bring out excessive bass, and vibration is managed.

I think it must be very difficult to design great audio gear since no matter what, most rooms are untreated, a crap shoot....But then, treated rooms are treated with chosen design and tools (of many), and space limitations, and finally to each person's taste....better, but also varying a great deal in the ultimate sound.

Thank goodness for the transparent and revealing front end stuff, but speakers, they seem an extraordinary challenge to me when in fact, no room is either perfect or uniform to others. Like a lot of us, seems all that has turned me into an experimenter in all areas of the sound.

I look forward to hearing how they sound there. Good Luck!

What Ana Caram recording do you use?

Like Palomino did in his thread, I'm putting together a collection of tunes for demo and imaging purposes.

I've been using vocal harmonies with my MG944 because that's what they are good at. Percussion as well now that I think about it. Very distinct location of high frequency percussion like wood blocks and stuff.

Since the DirectStream represents things differently than my Oppo, I'm noticing I like the feel of some different songs now - so now is a good time to try and track down some new demo tunes!

I'm pretty sure I have that one in my digital collection somewhere. I tried, but I just couldn't get into it. It does sound like a good test tune though!

Glad to hear it!

LR,

That is really exciting!

Funny, with revealing gear like we have, conceptually it seems obvious that everything in the system reflects the front end (and everything that is a part of it...transport, player software, computer, feet, cables, power supply etc). The whole deal is enlivened or inhibited by what makes up the front!

But then with so many options out there ...the opinions and language for descriptions all pretty much similar for the popular stuff.... financial thoughts, can it be enough better than what we have?

Then we introduce Decware, with the potential to go beyond in terms of subtle revelation...introducing another layer for the necessity for really complete beginnings, middles and endings!%^&* ....while also revealing gear insufficiencies when the system/room is capable of all the sweet micro stuff that completes music...... It seems a little daunting.

Then it shows up, offering all the usual sound attributes really beautifully, but also the subtle details, the stuff between the lines so to speak....Holy crap, life changes!

In turn, system/room refinement gets easier and more exciting...

All toward the amazing captivation by the love of music like last night!

It is so amazing we get to do this! So amazing....Thanks for the story.

Lonely Raven wrote on 07/11/14 at 20:43:05:

It might be a bit of both but I bet that the cable made a bigger difference than you expected and there's still more burn-in to follow.

Well, I got my first real listen to the DS.  I don't count the cluster that happened at AXPONA.  Anyway, I went over the Raven's nest last night for a short listening session.

We listened to Summertime - Ella Fitzgerald & Louis Armstrong, Summertime - Wailin' Jennys, Tin Pan Alley - Stevie Ray Vaughn, Lucky Man - ELP, Here comes the Sun - Beatles and Billy Jean - Michael Jackson (yes, Michael Jackson)

To be honest, I am not sure that I can differentiate between what was being added by the Mystery Amp or the DS, but I can say that these two paired together produce some wonderful music and some great synergy.

Focus, timbre, air were all fantastic.  All of the instruments were extremely well separated, distinct and all real sounding.  Most of all, I was impressed with the way it let the true mix (or at least what I perceived to be the true mix) come through.

Billie Jean is not a song I listen to, nor do I own, but after hearing that mix, I really could understand the brilliance of Quincy Jones.  That mix is just excellent and downright fun.

Lucky Man is a fairly dated recording, but the mix and the sound of the bass drum behind the lead singer was extremely engaging.  The clarity of the mix even on Here Comes the Sun really of draws you in.

Not wanting to give in to the hype, I didn't tap my toes, but I certainly found myself wanting to.   Damn, its true.

So again, I can say this is a killer combo.  Next step will be to listen to it again with Raven's HR1s, but it was already killer with the 944s.

Also, I want Raven to bring this DAC over to my place so I can hear it in my room and get a better sense of sound stage.  Raven will admit he needs those diffusers built for his room and they could take it to an even higher level.

Hi,

I want to just to share my experience. I am 52 years old now and start listening to hifi stereo system all Luxman system and Altec speakers  with vinyl record player 40 years ago, then move to Nakamichi tape and finally CD. But for CD, I still feel that it is not analog or organic sound like vinyl record or tape.

I just move to Mac mini as audio comp server to replace my Accuphase CD player. I am finding the music software which is fit to my system and my taste. It is Pure Vinyl music software. Now the point is that when I try Pure Vinyl, there are two modes for you to select
1) Maximum Fidelity.
2) NOS. (Classic).  NOS = Non-OverSampling.
Mode Maximum Fidelity gives you sound quality as current modern Hifi sound as same as all other music software like Amarra, Audirvana and Bitperfect. It is excellent but I feel that it is not analog or organic sound. It is a digital sound, very accurate, details, very extending high and low bottom. Very pin point precision sound stage but it is not floating. I feel that the sound is dry, no live. If I compare it with photo. It like very sharp picture, very details but edgy. It is not smooth natural color gradient transition. The picture is not 3D looking as picture from film era.

But when I play with mode NOS Classic. I know suddenly that its sound is what I am looking for. It is the same character of sound quality when you are playing vinyl record and tape. Its sound is more dense and round. Its sound stage is like 3D, the instruments are floating but not precise location as mode fidelity. The sound is not deep as fidelity but it is wider. I feel that its sound is more live, not dry even its details is lower than mode fidelity. But I hear more ambient sound, more trimbre, particularly classical music.

I want to share this information because you can try Music Vinyl with 15 days trial period. You will know two types of sound characters between Max Fidelity and NOS Classic. Then you will know which direction of sound you should chase.  

If you like Max Fidelity, then your DAC should be sigma-Delta type and DSD.

If you like Tape and Vinyl record sound character, it is NOS Classic type. Then you should use Pure Vinyl with mode NOS. (there is only this software with this function as I know).  And DAC should be NOS DAC type, not delta sigma DAC and not DSD.

It is free 15 days trial of Pure Vinyl of different modes of Max Fidelity and NOS Classic. You can do trial at your home without any extra cost. And you will know what kind of sound character you are looking for.

For me, I am analog guy with digital era. I use Pure Vinyl software. Now my DAC  is still Accuphase DAC which is delta sigma DAC. I have already ordered Audio Note DAC 3.1 fully upgrade to try later. (Audio Note uses NOS DAC chip, not delta sigma chip). Now I know which sound I chase and which equipment I should chase.

Last ZMA is awesome!  It is a great great great amp.

Palomino wrote:
"What impressed me about the DS was that it was neither too open and airy nor to precise and sharp.  With the ZMA it produced just the right amount of each and gave me the sense of being what the engineer intended with an instrument reality that I haven't heard before".

......and with the ZMA (so exceptional)....Timbre/Tone!

I just got back from vacation last night...an taking this day to catch up on everything around here...and getting nothing done...the open door to my Listening room....keeps bringing me in an sitting me absorbed in the music.  I am afraid to do the FW update... . I am in no hurry...even though I keep saying to myself do it!  

Yes, big expense...but I am not returning it.  I can't be without it-I can't go back.  

I will go without a few other things for awhile (a pretty long while).  

Oh, an for me, the ZMA with the CSP3 is a must. Yes, down the road I will try the DAC directly to the ZMA. Right now though....the Synergy of these three (PS Audio PerfectWave DS DAC/CSP3w/Cap Upgrade/ZMA) are all a man could ask for and then some............................... .

It took 30 years Sony/Philips!  But, Ted figured it out!  Our extensive Redbook collections live!

I have also been at this game for 35 years. I have had the NAD 51's...the PWD MkII's... .....the Oppo's in...and out/returned they all went.

So, for a DAC to come along an best my AA gear/Pro32 and 3.0 DAC PMD 100 Filter Chip/Prof Johnson an Prophecy Cryo Silver i2s ...not just equaling it/but beating my AA gear an trashing the above mentioned....is saying something from my perspective.

Paul and Ted told me they used those inexpensive output transformers intentionally. They wanted them to be a little lossy or something. So that was an intentional design choice, not a corner that was cut.

The only way I would even consider different output transformers is if I could find the same ones, but with a higher output voltage. The Output voltage on the DS isn't as much as the Oppo, and that's my one disappointment with the DS; it just doesn't drive the input of the ZMA as well as the Oppo or my Otari.

Yeah, I brought my ZMA in to Steve and had him add the XLR inputs. I really like them with my Oppo and Otari Reel to Reel - it definitely adds something to the ZMA. But that extra something isn't coming over with the DirectStream DAC - I thought it was voltage, but Ted said the voltage only equates to 3db and has "nothing to do with slam".

Quote:


This is what I got from Paul on the subject.


Quote:


So this gist is that it's part of the circuit and changing it, changes the filter design that Ted work so hard on.

I will get the latest FW in this weekend! ....see if I like it.

Peace, have a great weekend-all. If not partying at home...I'm downtown Mpls tonight...Use UBER!  I love them here in Mpls, New York an San Francisco... .  -Stone

LR,

Sorry, but I don't buy Paul's transformer story.

As you said, "that extra something isn't coming over with the DirectStream DAC."

Like I said, it will be interesting to see JA's measurements of the DS Art Dudley is reviewing.

Quote:


Those are beautiful speakers (SF always makes sexy stuff)! ... But what happened to the Gallos?

I exhausted everything from 8k down.  The 2.5 Venere's are literally a loss leader....for Sonus Faber.

I hear you on the validation. My girlfriend has validated the DS an my Sonus Faber 2.5 Venere's. She can hear.  

Beautiful HR-1's!  Enjoy, I have some family cool stuff to do today and busy until tomorrow night. So, I can't get to my Speakers till then  :'(.

Enjoy!

Interesting. Are these new model HR-1s? (I have older and newer ones, and they are different.) Are they broken in? (The sound is really different pre and post break-in on both of my pairs.)

Anyway, I love my HR-1s and am not going to look for other speakers, but I'm not in a treated room and probably never will be, etc. I find the new pair to have a great consistent frequency response from top to bottom and the imaging to be very accurate (I use tapes I made myself of bands I was in rehearsing in my then garage apartment as the real "test.") Yours sure look nice, though that finish would be too busy for me. I love my maple finish ones, and my silver paint ones.

Just checking in, I'm at my gal's place out in the country through tomorrow and then back to the caregiving grind. I've really enjoyed the break from the internet, may continue it.

@ Stone ~ I heard the SF paired with some McIntosh stuff (MC275 and C2500) at Magnolia, aside from being beautiful ... it was the best sound in the house for sure and I could easily get used to the SF sound.

@ LR ~ THANKS for the in depth review, I was hoping these were going to work out for you.  My only thoughts for you would be:

(1) Single Driver ala Omega,
(2) Concentric Driver ala Zu Souls, Tannoy or KEF,
(3) Open Baffles,
(4) Electrostats ... there is a newer design of electrostats made by Essence that look to be pretty cool.

A year ago, I would have said "HDTs all the way baby!". Especially because they play well the Torii3. Rather the Torii reacts well to the impedance curve of a single driver speaker.  

But I have to admit, at decfest, I thought the monoliths sounded better on the ZMA than the hdt's.  I was surprised to read (somewhere on here) later that the ZMA is more (less?) damped such that it doesn't react to the speaker impedance as much as a tori.  (so it's not doing that magic dance with the HDT's as much, so they sound different).  

All damping and impedance theory aside, the monoliths clearly sounded best to me last year.   There's a reason Steve keeps playing them on his ZMA.

Until I learn of something better, those are my "next speaker"

Interesting SteveC. This reinforces my opinion that I should stand tall with my Torii Mk IIIs and my HR-1s, they are such a great match, and it sounds as if the ZMA is much harder to match speaker wise.

My gal Lucy and I were lying down earlier this afternoon in the bedroom listening to music on my first Mk III and my first pair of HR-1s and she said "Wow this sounds so good, so real." Can't argue with that. And now I'm with my parents listening to my Mk II and ERR, another great combo. When you have great sound, it's time to stop changing things I guess!

My visits to Raven's house are a mixed bag for me.  On one hand I get to listen to some equipment that I really feel captures what's possible in hi-fi.  But on the other hand, I hear a system that I just can't invest in right now (4 kids to get through college - one now, three on the way).

I take some solace in how well my room images, but otherwise, his system is about twice what my system offers.  Still, my system is pretty listenable and once the Raven effect wears off, I am pretty happy and don't have any great need to upgrade.

Raven did recommend I check out a Chord DAC that seems to be gaining attention for doing Redbook well.  It's not that far outside my reach and if things go my way at work, I might be able to swing it.  I'm waiting for a guy that reviewed the DS to review it.  It may be the poor man's DS at about $1,800.

My review of the HR1s in Raven's system was an subjective but honest one.  I'd just heard the DS with his 944s and was impressed with everything except the vice grip sweet spot and this listening session was just days later.   The things I heard from that combo absolutely haunt me.

Maybe Raven and I drink the same koolaid, but we hear things similarly and it was uncanny how we both described the sound after I heard the HR1s.  Raven puts me on the spot and asks me to describe what I hear during these listening sessions without any input so it's kind of like a test in high school.  We do trade off on who goes first, but the HR1 test it was my turn given he'd had some time with them already.

Anyway, there are lots of people who like the HR1s, but I think maybe they just don't mate as well with the ZMA as other speakers.  I am still of the opinion (like SteveC) that the ZMA and the 945/companion cabinets was the best combo I heard at Zenfest.  However, the ZMA with the DS and the 944s are now my benchmark.  By far the most realistic, engaging and musical  system I've heard.  I want that texture on all the instruments , that clarity in the mix and that bass grip.

I hope people (Raven/Stone) keep experimenting with speakers and this combo because I don't think all the potential of this combo is captured yet.

Quote:


I agree. After listening to the HR-1, I really do appreciate what the 944 give me. One of those, "you don't know what you've got till it's gone".


Quote:


Yeah, I'm going to see what I can do about that. I'd like to pit the 944 against the Monoliths (or even *just* the 945) on *my* system in my troubled room and see what happens.

I'm also keeping my radar on for anything else that sounds like it might work well with the ZenZilla while improving my imaging. But the truth is that I realize now what a great setup I have, and I think I'd be fine coasting for a while till some great speakers fall into my lap in a very Zen sort of happenstance.

Synergy is definitely the key.  One time we put the ZMA on my diy DNA horns and it was unlistenable while on my white Rachael they sound pretty good.  So it's a matching game for sure.