Thanks for the lovely pics, raven!

Is that a Mystery Amp x2?

I'm referring to the one with the Russian Mig fighter jet tubes.
I recognize  them from a similar looking  Almarro Japanese amp which also uses the same bad ass Russian tubes.

Hmm .....that would make the "Unobtainable" amp a giant sized version of the CSP2/3 for driving speakers.

I'm not an audio engineer but I know that one of the reasons why the CSP2/3 sounds so good is because of the OTL design.

Thanks for sharing your audio experience.

I went to Decfest because I was so curious about the Torii 4 and mystery amp.  I have a Torii 3 and think it's be best thing since sliced bread.

So, when I got there, I had this attitude... "These amps better show me some reason to spend the money to upgrade... or else, I just won't."

I listened to the Torii4. It was great, much like the Torii3 from my memory.  Switched to the mystery and it was great too.  The differences seemed small.  The tori had a slightly fatter ass, more bottom end. More lush, smooth, delicious. The mystery amp was more rigid, clean, more controlled.  It seems to have a much tighter vise grip on every note comming out of the speakers. accurate. I listened mostly with hr1's, 945's+passive subs, and HDT's.

First impression/conclusion.  Not really a big difference between the Toriii4 and mystery.  Maybe the kt66's sound better than the el34's, so maybe getting a 4 for the price of a 3 is the thing to do.  The Mystery didn't impress.

Steve's new Teac UD 501 DAC is also very interesting.  They switched up-sampling on and off (44.1 kHz to 384 kHz music) and you could clearly hear some top end loss when it was turned off.  New lesson for me: upsampling cd quality music really does sound better. (I never would have guessed this.  Like getting something from nothing.)

Later on Steve put on high res music files, and then I was in trouble.  Now the difference between the mystery amp and Toriii 4 became hugely apparent.  That tight anal grip the mystery amp has on each note..... Well it is perfect for accurately, truly rendering high res music. I never realized it could be that sharp, clear, and real.  I went back to playing my old favorites in low res and they all sounded like crap by comparison.  High res on the mystery amp showed me there is a whole new level of ball game going on above what my Toriii 3 (and the 4) is doing.  It’s really in a different league.  

Second impression/conclusion.  The mystery amp is way better than I realized, but only if I have good source material.  All the music (all mine is cd 44.1) sounds just OK on it.  Not good enough to show it's true capabilities.  

So, the dilemma.  I risk making all my cd quality library sound "just average" if I get a mystery amp.  I can enjoy my favorite songs better on a Toriii 3 or 4.  And really, since I only have a Zdac and a Bifrost, I really should money into the DAC before the next amp.

It’s funny, now that I think back, Steve said this very same thing about the mystery amp ruining CD quality music for him.  This is what he meant.  This amp is made for music that I don't own yet. I haven't started building a high res library because a) cost.  b) Didn’t think it mattered. c) My favorite music probably won't exist high res ever.   The Mystery Amp is the vehicle to explore high res music.  It separates the men from the boys when it comes to recording quality.  If you have a high res collection, you want this amp.  

I just don't know if I want to invest in a high res collection.

This revelation also changes the calculus about other parts of the system for me.  Now will speaker wires and power cords and interconnect differences be even more profound?  Will the mystery amp show me things or flaws I haven't heard before? (Generally, I'm of the opinion that wires are the last thing that matter, meaning they have the smallest effect on sound compared to the amp/speakers/DAC/room)

So there's my take.  There exists this magical level of music reproduction above my current CD/Toriii3/HDT existence.  I thought it was myth. But it's real.  Such a dilemma.

On the speaker front, the HR-1's sounded great on both amps.  The HDT's... I listened to them of course because I have them... my reference point.  The 945's were very good last year with the Rachel.  And very good on the Toriii4 and mystery.  But it's true, when you hear them on the passive subs... They become "full size" speakers. They sound so good and full that you can't go back to just the bookshelf.  The horn sub basically makes them sound like a DNA and a 944 or HR-1 had kids.  You get that full bass, and you don't pay for it in the mids and highs at all.  It’s actually a little boomy on the Toriii4.  Less so on the mystery amp because of that superman grip that amp has on the speaker.   That makes the bass coming from combination of mystery amp + 945 + horn subs, the best, lowest, tightest sound.   Add to that some high res songs...  that's an amazing experience.

Everyone, thanks for your impressions.

Steve, interesting impressions and thanks for sharing. I'm really a "software" over "hardware" guy and my goal for the hardware is to have it bring out the best in my many (many!) recordings. Most of them don't sound that great when a really really revealing system trots them out for display, so I think the Mystery Amp would be not the best choice for me. With all the flexibility and it's natural character I've been able to get a very musical sound for a broad range of recordings with my Mk III, and it's a wonderful thing, haven't had that sort of broad range of satisfying sound for decades before.

I love SACD, have a great player and quite a bit of dics. Other Hi Res is wonderful, I have some, but I'm not going to go there and start collecting those in abundance as I have a lifetime's worth of music right now (doesn't stop me from buying more CD and vinyl, but don't want to go computer audio and so Hi Res is sort of not in my ball park.

Thanks for sharing your impressions and putting them in that framework.

Did anyone play any vinyl at Decfest?  If so, I'm curious how the Mark III, Mark IV, and Mystery amp, compared to each other.

My Mark III/IV conversion shipped today, so I guess I'll find out how it sounds on vinyl, later next week.

Mike in Seattle area

PS  a lot of stuff at Decware shipped today and is going out next Monday, also

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P.S. It's Brianne - she doesn't like when people mess that up  ::)

My apologies to Brianne .  I should have double checked.

Dan

I am wondering....can anyone comment more on the sonic details of the MkIV. I am hearing a lot of interest in the Mystery...detail, neutrality...sounds like it has speed and brilliant resolution too. Probably something more making the magic as well?

And the MkIV. What are its signature traits? As I look at LRs great pics, I see russian OA3s and Ruby 5U4G-STs in the MkIV. Though they can work nicely, relative to some other tubes, from my experience anyway, they both hobble the sound in a similar ways...perhaps overly bright and open, and especially the Rubys...even a bit tinselly, lacking in body and subtle information...

The Mystery looks like no Rectifier tubes, and I can't tell, is there some kind of ST shaped OA3. I am just imagining that these tubes alone could make a mark on the comparison between the MKIV and Mystery, so asking for more impressions if anyone is up for it.


SteveC.

Can't say for sure how this would relate to hi-Res, but with my Tranquility, room setup, Pure Music settings, and the way I have my Torii MkIII set up and tuned, I am getting really amazing texture and harmonic information from Redbook. That was a Tranquility design priority though, using the theory that 16 bit 44.1K is actually a load of information if you can just access and exploit it musically.

Not that well done Hi-Rez is not better...just that 44.1 is a lot if fully grasped.

This also makes me think of your impressions of the upsampling with the Teac DAC. Where did that better high info come from??? Also, it makes me think of all the messing around I used to do in Pure Music, one being using a 32bit filter, which I really like. This manipulation's success or not seems to have a lot to do with the quality of a circuit, and if manipulation is employed, the soiund quality the designers put in there to do it. But we are talking about Rebook getting better from excellent technological implementation.

I am really not conceptually interested in Hi-Rez, not because I doubt I would like well recorded hi-rez, but what effect might that have on my enjoyment of other lesser recordings...this, price, and the limitations of Hi-Rez and many recordings, is why I have pursued squeezing the most I can out of the ubiquitous Redbook.

Nice pics!
SteveC`s waited for, honest a-b comparison between the new mk4 and Mystery amp is just what Steve D hinted at when he told us there would be no vinyl at the fest now that the the new sampling rates had reached par and he was building a new amp. It`s not the death knell of anything but Steves nod to the many members here who regularly leave me thinking I`ve opened the NASA operating manual. You`re riding the wave, so Steves said `Here you are, go play`
And of course it`s for, as he says, difficult speakers, so you wont need to approach clipping if thats what you prefer.
Ample.

Then there is the multi talented mk4 which has more options and modes than ever.

The pic of the new ERR`s design looks stunning. I am really tempted.

Will,  My Mark III/Mark IV conversion will be arriving this Thursday,  so I'll gladly relay my sonic impressions to you, once I get a couple hundred hours on the new caps/wiring.

And believe me, I won't be using those stock Ruby rectifiers for my listening sessions!  They are ok for burn-in, but to say that they hobble the sound...in my experience with the Mark I, II, and III, that's somwhat of an understatement.  I have found Tungsol, Sylvania, National Union, Ken Rad, GE, and of course ANY RCA to be superior.  To my ears, anyway.  ...Also, Torii's rEally benefit from replacing the other stock tubes, especially the two inputs.  Most of you Decwarians already know that.

Lon,  I am fully in agreement with your comment about a well-seasoned Decware amp being much better sonically, than a fresh machine. Day and night difference.   I'm pretty excited about my Mark IV conversion. Although it'll need several hundred hours to fully break in the Jupiter's and other new caps, I already have 5000+ hours on the big iron (transformers).

Will, I owe you a PM or two. Coming later today!


Mike in Seattle area

Will, I'll have to try out the Chatham 5R4WGY's, I have no experience with those. Ebay or dealer?

 1940's Sylvanias with the wires between the plates and bottom getters, are nice tubes, they should compare very well to the 50's and even the '40s RCA's.  Are they VT-244's or civilian production?  Should be about the same soundwise.

Favorite 5U4's...In the RCA's the 40's bottom getters are great, I sold Lon a NOS matched pair of those. I think he likes them. I've got a pair of 40's KenRads in my Decware ZSM's, they have good bass with nice highs. Soundstage was a bit unfocused in my Torii Mark III, though

Overall, I go back and forth between "older the better" RCA 5U4's, and Tung Sol 5U4's. 1950's and even the 60's Tung Sol's had great quality control, and sound good top to bottom with pretty decent bass.
I like them with both the Torii and the ZSMs.  I'm using Amperex 7308's for inputs in both systems, so that certainly affects the synergy. I used the Amperex 7308's in the Torii I, II, III.  The trick with the Tung Sols is finding a matched pair. Course, it's not so easy with the RCA's, either.

On my Mark IV conversion, the transformers and chokes are not changed (they are the same as the III) but the coupling caps (and from what I see in Steve's undercarriage photos)  the power supply caps are new.  Jupiter coupling caps and ??? power supply caps, along with the new wiring, will need the burn-in.

The Jupiter coupling caps that Steve put in my ZSM's, were 90% there, at 300 hours.  As per your intuition, with the III/IV conversion, I should hear where it's going at 200-300 hours.   Fully burned in at 500+??  Maybe. Already have 5000 hours+ on the transFormer/chokes.

Concerning the demo amps and tubes at Decfest, well..figuring 50-100 hours per week of play time(I'll be getting 110-115 hrs. wk. during my burn-in), they probably have no more than 500 hours on them.  Maybe less for the Mark IV.  

Always nice talking to you, Will.

Mike

Hi Lin,  You are right!  It did not.  I've had too many Torii's.

I just saw my old Mark I yesterday, it now lives at a nearby friend's home.  I sold it to him for a grand about 8 years ago (with Amperex 7308's).  Sure wish I had it now.  Maybe the best amp Decware ever made.  

It actually drove my Legacy Audio Signature III speaker's with three 10" woofer's, rather well.  Not like the Mark III does, but still, it drove them nicely.  And what is the output on it? Something like 12 watts per channel?  A very sublime 12 watts.

it would be interesting to put some Jupiter coupling caps in a Mark I, and see if it was an improvement or not.

Mike

Since my post, I've been reading a lot about hi res stuff and digital audio in general.

I'm a computer guy, so I understand bits and bytes.  I just don't know very much beyond the basics of 16bit PCM when it comes to audio.

Another thing I want to say is that I don't have a "refined ear", the way Steve and Bob can hear flaws... I can't judge well any single piece of equipment.  But it's very easy to tell when one thing is different/better than another when comparing between them.  (which is why I go to Peoria)

I too was a firm believer in "44.1khz is plenty.  96db dynamic range is plenty, and more than any master tape has". etc.   But hearing was believing at decfest. There was a difference when the sampling rate was tweaked.

I found a couple things that shed some light onto what I might have heard.  The difference was definitely on the treble end.  A high frequency roll off for 44.1 vs. 384khz playback.

These two pages have great info:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/415361/24bit-vs-16bit-the-myth-exploded
This one basically says: 24bits is unnecessary.  16bits has more dynamic range than we even use.  Especially with the compression (loudness wars) of cd's in the past decade or so).  (neat site: see Dynamic Range Database. http://www.dr.loudness-war.info )
The thread also says that sampling frequency does make a difference.  smaller and smaller time slices (more frequent sampling) allows for more accuracy, less error, less distortion.)
take away for me: Bit depth=blah.  sampling rate=yay.


http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/05/measurements-teac-ud-501-pcm-performance.h...
This post measures the TEAC dac, shows how good it is, etc., yeah, yeah. But it also points out a mode where Digital Interpolation is turned off (putting it in a Non Oversampling mode).  The frequency plot of this mode shows a substantial treble freq roll off compared to when interpolation is turned on.  (sine wave is jagged vs. interpolated to be smooth)
take away for me: The Teac has a mode that can lose lots of treble (maybe this was what we were hearing when playing with the sampling rate).

So, again, I can't judge a thing by itself well, but I hear the diff between the Mystery and Torii.  At first I didn't think the differences where that big. They were clearly audible differences, but they didn't seem worth it to me. (I know the price/performance plot is not linear. we all pay a lot more to get just a fraction better performance).  But after hearing how clear things could be on the very accurate Mystery, then by comparison, the looser, lusher Torii, was less preferable to me. (At the cost of making my poorly recorded favorite songs sound worse.)

I also want to make a point about a mistake we all make.  Psychologically, we all believe if A is better than B, then B must suck. Well, those of us with more than one decware amp know that they all do different things well, and overall, any of them are extremely fine amps on their own.  So when discussing torii3 vs. torii4 vs. Mystery... none of this means there's a bad amp in the bunch.  I know we all know this, but it's difficult for us sometimes to not make that judgment.  know what I mean?

So,
a) maybe there's some basis for the high freq roll off I heard.
b) high sampling rate, interpolated music can sound better than 16x44.1khz
c) all the decware amps are great and compare well to other brands.  we're splitting hairs.

Thanks to everyone who attended this years fest!  Besides the 80 people who made the trip, we logged  188 people who watched the live feed!

I tried to post this years videos on demand but ran into technical issues and had to regroup.  Instead of putting them on the video server, I split them up into individual segments for each speaker/amp combination.  

So, these videos can be found here: https://www.decware.com/newsite/zenfest2013.html

And we also have this years killer pictures that can be found here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/105633305@N07/

I'll be working on the web pages relating to the speaker changes, followed by the web pages dealing with the new Torii MK IV and Mystery Amp as time allows.

Thanks and don't forget we do listening appointments all year long including on weekends during the winter so you don't have to wait until DECFEST to visit.

-Steve

The 945s/passives were the show highlight for me with the mystery amp.

Anyone know what they are going to sell for?

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I believe Steve said the passive bass cabinets will be about as much as the speakers.

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+1 ... hearing rumors around $2000 ... which = excellent value IMO!

I'm listening to my modded Zen-A, trying out "new" music, and I keep thinking to myself...I wonder what this is going to sound like on the Mystery amp!? It's going to be like rediscovering my collection all over again. Even now, listening to discs I've heard hundreds of times, I'm catching things I've never heard before. It's going to be a long 10+ weeks...

Go back and listen to Steve's overhead videos. Even with the basic sure microphones, you get an idea of what the ERRs are capable of.

The more I think about it, the more I'm aiming for a set for myself later next year!

As a previous owner of RL1 speakers that became RL2 speakers and now an owner of ERR speakers, I can say that the older models projected that sort of image and sound stage with ease, and I imagine that the new model excels at this. What I saw as the biggest improvement through the development of the three models I have is the tonal balance, the midrange became progressively more transparent and bass both quicker and deeper.

I bet the new model is something else!

Hmmmm...I didn't hear the ERRx this year, or, like Steve did last year, didn't pay that much attention.  I was more interested in hearing the Rachel amp with HDT's.  Like Steve, I have HDT's and really like the sound in the sweet spot, although my pair does have a deep, wide sound stage.  Probably room dependent.  I'll have to listen more intently next year, especially if I get the Rachel I'm saving up for.

Valiant, Decfest is held every year on the fist full weekend in October, beginning on Friday at 10:00 AM.  Look for info next year around august.

Dan  

Hi Steve, Gary (Valiant) from Australia.
Any dates for the 2014 DECFEST?
I can possibly squeeze in a 2 week teleport to the US, would like to pick up a trip to Kennedy Space Centre, or Houston.
Cheers,
Gary