Early this year I was asking Steve his opinion, as I was about to order two bridged SE84C+ amps instead of the, by then, just discontinued SE34i.2.  His advice steered me towards the Mini-Torii, mostly on grounds of the tube voltage regulation feature.  

My earlier suggestion was aimed only at stopping the dependence on discontinued VR tubes in future amp designs.  It did not consider sound quality, as my Mini Torii could not sound better, as is.  The power filtering mechanism from the VR's works quite well.

If Steve favored the Mini Torii over the SE84C+ monos in my case, the SE84CS does not have a sonic advantage over the Mini, just different emphasis on their sound profile distributions  ;).

From my experience with Steve, he seems to gather all the information he can on sound preferences, flexibility desires, power needs, speakers, room, etc, and then make a recommendation based on the specific complex. Considering this, if he is weighing toward the MT signature(s) and power, then one of its nice attributes would be VRs (along with all the other tube flexibility). Seems to me that each of the amps can be his favorite depending on the complex, each having particularly good attributes in certain areas but all having excellent (though individual) sound signatures.

Seems the varying approaches to arriving at transparent and truly musical signatures is what gives the family varying signatures, but the base standard of excellence continues. This is illustrated by how the new amps develop, and by how the older amps continue to be refined...

Steve has himself stated that when you bridge the amps you lose some sonic benefit. Others have stated this on the forum as well. Ditto for running "parallel". . . .

As far as dynamics, it all depends on several factors: gain coming in, speaker efficiency being among the most important.

In a small room my Zen amp (the 27th made, it was even made before the SV83 tubes were implemented, then upgraded to that "Rev. A" status) could do orchestral works justice, certainly not concert level, but I was not using very efficient speakers at the time.

If it wasn't for the fact that Decware builds Just-in-Time, your arguments would make me believe Mr. Deckert had an excess of Mini-Toriis in stock at the time of my consultation.  Since this is not the case, there's something you are missing that Mr. Deckert certainly doesn't.

By the way, all arguments assuming peripheral synergies with the SE84C+ are not valid ones, as these also apply to the Mini-Torii  

My remarks are not directed against anyone, just trying to make some sense out of this issue.  I'm sorry I brought it up, as apparently arguing in this forum seems anathema for some people ...

This forum needs a moderator.

Mike in Seattle area

Ok, I agree that message came out too rude, now that I read it again. So, I apologize for that.  Nevertheless, Lon, you are always so defensive about everything that may not be consistent with your own ideas, it was hard to avoid that unfortunate slip.

Original message will be edited BTW ...

That's a very welcome decision, Lon.  Finally we may get less biased, more logic and objective points of view from this forum.  Good luck to you!

Fireblade, Lon has eloquently reiterated with his last post what he said to you the first time?!  In summary, the simpler signal path of Steve D's designs of the pentodes run in triode do have sonic advantages over the pentodes in pentode-period-fact.

However, you give up so little in sonics and gain some more power in the latter (via Steve's designs) and it is still much more musical than solid state.....the Mini Torii and Torii III are great choices too. SO, deal with your post cognitive dissonance over your Mini Torii purchase. We don't argue and fight on this forum or disrespect each other. Your comments are way out of line and ignorant.

Furthermore, your tone in this previous thread was uncalled for as well:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1342748177

Stone of Tone

Wise words will.

Never the less, I post too much and this seems to irritate or lead to misunderstanding, and I'm thinking of taking a sabbatical. My apologies to anyone Ive offended with my words, opinions, recounts of experience, or bias. Best to all in the coming weeks, and I hope all who attend Decfest have a wonderful time. PMs will reach me, I'll be here waiting for my ZP3.

Guys,

I have never seen so many "Edits" in one thread...WTF!!!!

Everybody is correct in their own way of thinking, what Lon and Stone said were correct.

Building an amp with a known part that will become extinct would just create major problems down the road, so it wise not to go there in the first place if it at all possible.

I've listened to my Mini"T" some nights without the regulation, and enjoyed it ever bit as much with regulation.

I've had "C"'s and have also had a pair bridged, when bridged what I lost was out weighed by what I gained. I would prefer a set of "C"'s bridged over a Mini"T" to this day, I still miss my Monos driven by my CSP. With all that said, may favorite amp is still the first generation  Torri.

So FB, it all goes to preferences, both Lon and Stone, have had a lot more experience with the other amps and was trying to get you an opinion that would help answer your question. I don't think either had any other intentions.

Would you like my choice in amps? If you love your Mini"T"  I doubt it, but I would still try my best to give you an unbiased  opinion. I don't think anyone here, including Steve Deckert or myself has anything to gain by not giving an unbiased opinion. I'm thinking the advise you got from Steve, in his talking to you, was the best advise you could ever get, trust me he is good at it. Even when it comes to speakers, he is better at it than I.

Words of wisdom Donnie.....we have to party at the fest.  -Stone

Great points Chas.

Since the system is literally a living thing once we put ourselves and our ever developing preferences into the mix, I think any Decware gear could become a favorite. I recall Steve talking about an experiment he did once, starting with the 84 and listening for some time, then working up through the line to the Torii. The way I recall the story, he really fell for each amp, thinking each was an improvement over the last one.....But then, when he went back to the beginning, the 84 too was an improvement over the Torii.  

I really like this story and hope I have conveyed it accurately! It indicates to me that the maker/designer's philosophy, technique, voicing etc,....the Art of amp making.... at this level of effort, technique, art, and devotion, each amp results in a really good sound period.  By utilizing the "ingredients" of each amp to the fullest (each amp starting with different tubes and/or power) and respecting and utilizing the "ingredients" pure character values, each amp has to present itself in a different way. But at the same time, each presents the voice of the "family" and they are all totally amazing in their own ways!

Then there are all of us who agree with the Decware family sound and find (or create) our favorites within it.

For me, my system is so tuned as a whole that I can't tell which parts are more important. They are all very good, but each phase of the system development changes them as a group toward my preferences. Did I mod the HR-Ones with caps and additional damping because of my room, my tastes, because I prefer the Torii III sound better with these mods, or was it because I liked the HR-Ones better this way? Did changing the coupling caps in the Torii to NOS Russian PIO stick because I liked the Torii better this way, or did it stick because it tuned one or more other aspects of the whole of the system/room to tastes?

Same with computer, DAC, tubes, cables, power and all. I totally agree that the system synergy is the thing. And for me, though my experience with Decware amps is limited to the SE34I+2 and Torii MkIII, I am willing to bet  any of the amps could sound great for me given the right environment and synergy.

On the other hand, I have little doubt that, given the opportunity to play with all the amps, a favorite would likely rise tot he top for me...for my preferences.

It is a lot of fun!

That scuffle seems to have petered out a bit ago.