I just received a used Torii Mk III. I'm still on the list for a new one with the V-Caps and stepped volume control. But being ampless I was able to procure a Torii from a good guy who had issues with his house electricity and 101db efficient speakers.

Now I have music. Unfortunately along with what appears to be spectacular sound is also a puzzling distortion, especially noted in the lower midband. When I put my ear close to the speaker it sounds as though the sound is being played underwater. It sounds this way on both channels. I rolled various tubes but other than changing the tonality, the distortion remains.

I played the Torii through my Allnic preamp as well. But regardless, pre or no pre the distortion remains. I tried different cables and out of desperation, last night i inserted a pair of Def Techs 8060's, removing the Tyler Decade's out of the picture. The Def Techs were unlistenable.

Torii has no hum, dead silent and is being fed from a dedicated 20amp circuit, Oyaide outlet and carbon fiber cover.

I know there's brilliance behind the Torii, we can hear it. We've spent a few evening enjoying music but would often cringe, usually with male vocals and noted as well that there seems to be a lack of clarity in general. Bass especially is although far fuller and deeper than my Pass X350.5 it's somewhat of a mess.

I'm hopeful to bring the Torii to another home/system but all I'd be eliminating at this point is the house and its associated AC.

Any ideas?

Michael, Have you rolled different tubes types on the inputs and power tubes in particular? What tubes are you using?

I get distortion with 6N1Ps but not with 6DJ8, 6922, 7DJ8s. I have rolled all the tube sets and determining that the 6N1P is the culprit. I can't recall exactly, but I think I must have used the 6N1P when the amp was brand new for a little while with no issues. But now somehow the 6N1P must be overloading the power tubes?

Nice tubes. The RCA Voltage Regs OA3, and OC2 are probably pretty invincible. Likely the same with the RCA 5U4Gs. For starters, how about rolling the 6922s into the inputs, replacing the 6N1P and see what happens. If there is still distortion, maybe leave the 6922s and everything else as is, and try changing out the 6AC7 or EL34s for the other quad.

If the RCAs you listed are extras, and the above does not work, you could continue rolling one tube type at a time, and this would rule in or out tubes as part or all of the issue.

Just in case you have not had a chance to figure all the tubes out yet:

6N1P, 6922, 6DJ8, 7DJ8 all work in the input socket (outside fronts), with different characters by type and also by vintage and make within a type.

The RCA 5U4G can go where the Ruby 5U4Gs are, or if something else is in there, they are the tubes toward the center from the back power tubes. There are several other rectifiers that work here. 5U4GB, 5AR4 (GZ34), 5Y3GT... each type and individual within a type having particular character.
The OA3s are just inside the 5U4Gs and can be subbed with OB3, OC3, OD3, again all different tonal tendencies, and varied also by ST (coke bottle) or Straight bottle.
The OC2s, the tall narrow tubes in the middle front can be subbed with OB2. If stock Raytheon's are in there, you will find the RCA a little different tonally.
JJ or Shuguang 6AC7 and EL 34 are interchangeable.

Good Luck. I hope it is a tube and not the amp!

You're welcome. I hope it solves your problem. To me, after getting my system/room tuned, this amp is so good it is sort of unbelievable.

I'm assembling a pair of GR-Research Super V's. My current reference are the Tyler Decade D1's which didn't sing well with the Pass. The Super V's are a 97db efficient free air speaker. I'm excited to get these built. The panels are painted with automotive color, at a body shop, and the rest I've dome myself.

I'm hopeful to get the Torii dialed in before inserting the Super V's. Should be a good "sound off".

Changed a few tubes, the 6N1p's but no help. Don't know where to go from here other than a direct comparison with another Torii owner.

I agree. If all the tube sets have been ruled out, as well as source and connections, then calling Steve will set solutions in motion. If it is the Torii causing the distortion, something is definitely wrong.

Your experiences demonstrate the value of having the seller send the piece back to DECWARE for a look-see and renewal of the factory warranty. It is well worth the small fee involved.

This is a tough one. I cannot believe it's the tubes. Last night I experimented with the tone controls. I largely eliminated the distortion by turning the bass control all the way down. It sounds wonderful. As long as I keep the volume reasonable and the bass control down, we're good.

Interesting. So the Pass amp with 350 WPC wouldn't do bass on my Decades. The 26 WPC Torii does more bass with the bass control in the "off" position. Does it do enough bass? Is there a good balance? I need to play some bass heavy music like, Shiny Toy Guns or B-Tribe. I did note astoundingly so, that when playing B-Tribe Suave Suave, the 2nd cut has subterranean bass I hadn't heard since I had my line arrays. The Torii hit those notes!!  :o

The Decades have 7 drivers each but none bigger than ~6 inches. I wonder if there isn't some strange interaction going on with the Decades? Hooking up the Def Techs? Forget about it. The Def Tech's played well above their price point hooked up the Pass and Allnic combo. Duh. But through the Torii, they sounded like total crap. Weird too because they have self powered subs. Not sure what the efficiency is though.

Another test i tried against all better judgement was to run it through my PS Audio Power Plant Premier, an AC regenerator of sorts. It played well! I got a good, not great central image, no worse than through a dedicated outlet. I may return to that for further ABing.

I have a Torii on order. We decided to buy the second Torii. It's not like I can afford it! My rational though is that I'll get to compare Torii against Torii, rather than shipping my 2nd owner bought amp to Decware. I don't know how they would feel about that. The Pass folks are amazing about fixing there broken products regardless of who owns them. Same with Nuforce. And, I'm just not sure if this amp is broken, it just acts, ah, weird.

The Torii plays well with the Allnic. Another pre for you Torii owners to consider.

Now I'm even more anxious to get the Super V's built. Gotta finish those cross-overs. Thanks for all your feedback  :)

Thanks Lon, will do. It is an interesting journey. I'll call Steve on Monday and report back.

Sorry, crossed in the air waves with Lon and you here.

Bear with me guys, I'm scratching my head here trying to describe what I've done which was half-assed desperation. When swapping around tubes one of the 6N1p's died. I don't know why but I had a dead channel and no light on what I think was a 6H1N-EB (OTK7). I replaced that 1 tube on left channel to a 6N1P-EB (9204) Sovtek. Correct, I don't have matching tubes because I was, at that point trying to get sound.

So now I'm looking at the Torii manual and it doesn't call for any type of 6H1N-EB. The gentleman I bought this from was highly knowledgeable about tube gear and tubes in general, thus the full compliment of tubes he'd sent me. But where did I get the idea of the 6H1N-EB? I think it was marked in a 6N1P box but don't remember.

Will, what tubes should I replace that would effect this distortion? I've played with the EL34s using the Treasures and the Mesa Boogies. Don't recall though that the original set had an issue as when first set up, it all sounded wrong.

FYI I have a quad set of RCA OC2's and a quad set of TAD EL34B-STR's along with the Shuguang Treasures and the EL34 Mesa Boogies. Others too!
Thanks again!

Sounds like you are in good shape for tubes. The dead channel could potentially happen from dirty input sockets or misaligned or dirty tube pins if it is bad enough to not make connection. This is an interesting thing to look at. Do you have some deoxit or deoxit gold, or some similar cleaning/protection stuff. If so you could put it on the pins and let is sit a while, and then wipe off the pins. You could then put some on the pins, thin, and carefully work them in and out of the sockets several times, cleaning the socket a bit, wipe it off and try the tube again.

It seems the 6H1N-EB is a designation for a 6N1P. So you are good there. But different ones will sound different. Two brands/pairs of 6H1N-EB, and one marked OTK1 create distortion in my amp.

6922s and 6DJ8s and 7DJ8s don't set up distortion in mine.

Since it is easy to roll tubes, I would just be methodical about it looking for any weak link, one tube type at a time.

Did you try the 6922s you have in the input sockets?

If not, I would try those first. Remember, this is your first stage and the progression goes directly from these to the EL34s. So they impact the EL34s. This is why I suggest trying alternatives to the 6N1P first.

I don't really think it matters on the EL34s, my thought would just be to see if distortion happens changing whole quads out, one quad at a time. It is unlikely that you would have two tubes bad, one in each channel, but it is possible. And you can get a feel for the sound of each too.

If this does not do it, just for kicks, roll the Rectifiers.

I kind of doubt the OC2 is a bad link, but since you have spares, it just takes a minute to change them.

Did you try the impedance switches?

Michael, I don't have the Bridge in the PWD because I don't use computer audio and have no intention of starting to. I do use the Torii plugged into the Power Plant Premier, and I have to say I prefer it that way than plugged directly into the wall.

I've never been happier with a digital component than I am with the PWT and PWD. I plan on getting the upgrade when I can afford it.

Hi Michael,
    It sounds as if you had a challenging weekend!  Feel free to call me anytime or bring your amp to my place and I can help you sort it out.   My system is singing now after I just switched to the new EE Dac Plus and you will love it. We can also plug your amp in and I can easily help you sort out the problem tubes......
    I am free after work all week this week if you can come by.  
Cheers,
Morgan

Morgan,

You would be my savior. But as I mentioned, it sang well last night. I still want to know the cause of the distortion. Best to perform and AB comparison.

I'll bring the Allnic.  :)

I'd like to talk with Steve regarding this bass control and how it may effect SQ on some speakers. But given an opportunity to AB compare with another Torii will tell all.

Super V's. The networks are built. The side panels are painted and need to be retrieved from the paint shop. I'm hopeful they did a good job! I need to talk with the designer regarding how these speakers are wired up. There's little to no information on the overall wiring of the 3 bass drivers and the single tweeter. In fact, come to think of it, I'm still missing the plate amps.  

Listening to the Decades now, through the Torii, I would have not bought this Super V speaker kit. On the other hand, I wouldn't have bought a 26 watt tube amp either.

I agree that it sounds like the bass knob, but regardless still come and bring the Pre with the Torii

Called Decware and left a message for Steve. I have not received a call back so I'm still in the dark regarding this issue. I'm hopeful to see Morgan this week still. Would love to hear his rig and the Decware with the Super V's. Also, to clear the mystery of the health of my Torii. Should be interesting too, to here how the Allnic plays in his system.

Glad you got that sorted. It is best to get a thorough look over from Steve with used gear anyway and may be he will reinstate the warranty??

Good Luck and sorry for the quiet!

I have a torii III V-cap, stepped atten, stock tubes. Mac mini, linear PS, Latest Audirvana Plus, Prism Firewire Dac, Torii II, Ref 3A GV's which are 90 db at 1 watt, linear 5 ohm impedence, terrible distortion midrange and  bass. I can't get peaks much over 90 db in my room .  It sounds as if the amp were clipping. Same result when feed the dac with analog from an Oppo, firewire from the mm, or Spdif from an Oppo. The Ref 3 A's do not like feedback but I could sure use some.  Please help, need a place to start. Thank you

I'm not sure exactly what is going on. I assume this is happening with both channels?

Is it possible you have 6N2P tubes at the input? The only time I had distortion and hum from the Torii Mk III was when using those as inputs instead of 6N21P (or 6922 types, I don't like those in the Torii).

Dave, something does not seem right in this. I have one of the first Mk IIIs made and I don't have the bass controls. I always have my treble reduced, partly room/house build, but it's an amp that from the git go had lots of brightness available.

I think it's unlikely that it's tubes. . . but I don't know for sure. If it were a transformer it would have to be at least two of them and that doesn't seem that likely to me.

Something is not right.

To be honest, I think a call to Steve and probably a trip back to the mother ship is the best next step. . . .

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if the tube reads 6h17-eB then it's the wrong tube(s) placed into the right box.


It seems the 6N1P in a Zen TORII MKII or MKIII falls right on the edge of a window of operation where depending on how the tube tests, it could actually fall outside that window causing premature distortion.  The solution is to use 6922's, or at least avoid using 6N1P's in this amp.  In recent testing we saw this in action where a pair of 6N1P's causes the amplifier to put out less than 5 watts.  What actually happens is that the input tube itself is distorting and of course the amplifier just follows along.


USE 6922 input tubes in the Zen TORII amplifiers.

That's funny because the new ZENSE84CKC is too much for the 6922; DECWARE cautions to use a 6N1P in there.

Now the 6N1P-EV is too much for the mighty TORII MK III to handle.

I suppose I will have to dig into the tube drawer for some 6922's.