Ah, I bet you can take it! It will be interesting!

Very interesting.

My TORII came with JJ EL 34s that have a singe halo getter. Yes, The JJ 6CA7s are different tubes, they have dual getters like the classic Mullards.

The highs on the JJ EL 34s smoothed out after 30 hours and the bass has continued to improve.

datman, what regulator tubes are you using?

PS- I've included my current tube set in my signature. Maybe we can all
include this info.

Will,

PM me with your addy--I'll send you a couple.  I have six and unless something gives I won't be using any!

Very interesting Datman.  Please keep us posted on how you like them in comparison to the BTs.  The BT 6ca7s are the least offensive of the luxury Shuguang tubes (I've disliked most Treasure and Psvanes--I know I'm in the minority) I've tried and they were a step up from the Winged Cs, but I do wonder if in addition to that additional bass impact, it is a more compelling tube.

Will,  

Keep an eye out for them--they're in the mail.

I had an interesting discovery with those OA3 tubes.  They were frightfully bad when using my Torii without a preamp, but with either a Dodd battery buffer or Shindo Auregies on my Torii, it was a very pleasant change.  

More drive, more tonal density, better bass--no real draw backs, just an even more masculine presentation.  I will be keeping the remaining 4  ;)

Gopher, It is interesting that the signature of a pre/buffer before the Torii works so well with a tube set you did not like on its own. I have been working with Mac Mini tweaks, feet and cables...also auditioning a Music Fidelity V-Link (USB async) between the Mini and the ZDAC-1....AND an opened-box Tranquility NOS DAC in comparison to that. So with tube experimentation it is thick around here with options.

To get clearer comparisons between the two DAC setups, I took out my ZSTAGE as I wanted to hear the new V-Link clearly. And the output of the Tranquility is higher causing distortion through the Zstage without software volume reduction, so A/Bing both with the Stage is cumbersome. I do stick it back in after the ZDAC at times though, but with my current mind frame, the additional tube stage has a little too much signature, so I am inclined to take it back out. With the ZDAC alone, I definitely liked the Zstage.....and I still might once the dust settles, but for now, I prefer the lack of complication.

With a starlight USB cable to the V-Link, and a glass toslink V-Link to ZDAC-1, the sound is very good...comparable in listenability to the Tranquility which is known to be a giant killer, many who have actually compared liking it better than most of the very popular, current production async DACs. The Tranquility excels at micro detail and ambient cues (very good stuff), but so far, the V-Link/ZDAC for me may be bit more musical....a bit more easy to get lost in the music. Maybe..... The interesting thing is that each has great qualities without a clear winner at this point for me.

But relative to this thread, I do find it interesting that the tube stage, with its current cabling and tube is not an absolute improvement for me in at the moment.



Lon, What a nice group of regulators to explore! It will be good to hear your impressions after you PS front end sorts itself out.



In thinking about this thread so far, it is interesting to note (as usual) how important the front end is, our power, what the other tubes we are using, the sound of our individual rooms, cables, feet and all.....all the variables that might make a tube preferable in one setup and not in another. But on the other hand, the net effect of these combined posts gives good pointers for exploration.

Within each setup, if changing only one tube type, we can definitely identify characteristic differences between say input tubes...and this is good information.....one tube is drier, tighter, brighter and the other warmer, more textural, more subdued, but open....or whatever. But with the signatures of the combined setup, with particular power tubes, regulators and VRs....the brighter tube might be best with one set, and the warmer one with another. And this does not even consider room, cables, power etc.

But it does point to the comparative characteristics of two tube pairs within the knowledge that the particular synergy we have arrived at has great power too. And the Torii's options for fine tuning tube sets to preferences is amazing. It is cool that we are sorting this stuff out in some conveyable fashion.

Onward!

Will

Lon,

The PWD needs about 200 hours of break-in.

Surprised you got the PWT. I use the Bridge with a Seagate HD connected to a Netgear WNDR 3700 router, controlled via the eLyric iPad app more than my PWT.

PS- Tried a pair NOS of coke bottle RCA OA3s before I returned the TORII. If someone wants them send me an email.

Lon, it is awesome you found a front end your love more than you beloved Sony! Are you still using the ER's or back to the HR-1s?

Interesting your love of the 6N1P too. I can see that. I tried two kinds of cryo'd 70/80's 6N1Ps and I liked them a lot, but preferred the various NOS 60's mullard, siemens, amperex 6922 and 6DJ8s from a batch of slightly used tubes I was auditioning. So I didn't keep the 6N1Ps. I may not have given them enough time though.

But also I got the coke bottle RCA OA3s with my amp, which sound notably warmer than the no-name straight bottle OA3s Gopher sent me for comparison, so had I had your preferred straight bottle RCAs they might have sent me in a different direction than I went.




Listening now with the straight OA3s, some 40s RCA coke bottle 5U4Gs (brighter/opener than the 50s ST's) and NOS RFT/Brinmar EL34s, my torii's stock 6N1P sounds pretty damn good. Very warm and textural. But compared to the Mullard CV2492 (6922) pulls I had been using, the Mullards have a similar warmth, and actually similar tonal values altogether, but notably more detail, micro detail and dynamics, leaving a blacker background, a more open/less veiled presentation, and a more defined sound stage. They make the seductive texture of the 6N1P sound a little distorted.

But these are not cryo'd 6N1Ps like yours, and may not be from the same time period or company, so there are possibly variables at play beyond personal tastes. If the warm texture of the 6N1P is characteristic, you may not like these Mullards. Who knows, but for me, though they are interesting tubes, I can't use the particular 6N1Ps I have over any of the many NOS 6922/6DJ8s I have.

Lon' It sounds like you have reached your goal of a system synergy that plays anything in a way that sounds beautiful. Bravo! It has been interesting to follow in your comments....the PS power regen unit, then the ERRs, and finally the PS front end. Sounds awesome.

I get the "occlusion" thing with the 6N1P too, but I suspect the particular one you are using is a better tube than the one I have as well. I think I recall Voshod, Anod, and Reflectors as name brands and EV or plain, and then the cryo thing and time period of production. So really, it seems there are a lot of 6N1Ps out there. Do you recall where you got yours and what they are exactly?

Hi All,

I've run through a BUNCH of combinations of input tubes, regulators, and rectifiers...and FWIW here's my final Torii tube combo I'm using and why:

(Background...I'm using a computer driven source. Macbook Pro to a homemade DAC with TDA1541A chip and tube output stage. I've got a subwoofer and a seperate pair of satellites. The sub has a seperate plate amp with phase, crossover, and volume control. My listening space tends to be VERY bright and I'm limited on acoustic treatments. My Torii was purchased a year ago and has V-Caps with upgraded attenuator. It came with the Winged C EL34's.)

Input tubes...I've settled on some 1970's 6N1P's. Warm layered sound, great soundstage, and vocal/instrument timbre. The other tubes were all good contenders; National 7DJ8, Amperex 6DJ8, 6N23P, and some 6922's. Everything was back to stock when I rolled the input tubes. All of the tubes tubes I tried were good conteners but they all seemed to "shove" different things at me that didn't sound right. The 6N1P's had the best balance and warmth.

Rectifier...I confess I cheated on this a bit. I called Steve during the 1100 hour (hair pulling) break-in period last year and asked him which (if any tube) he would roll. After a long pause he said if he had to swap any tube it would be the rectifiers. IF he were to swap. He thought the supplied tubes were/are that good. I took the advice and got some 1940's RCA's and have been tickled ever since. Just to make the simple more complex, I got some 1960's Svetlana 5U3C's. Still like the RCA's more. They're more "rich" sounding.

Compared 0B2 and 0C2. Loved the 0C2.

I then got a set of each of the 0A3, 0B3, 0C3, and 0D3. This was the final step. I settled on the 0D3's. My speakers have a "resistorless crossover" and I feel that with the bright room acoustics, the 0D3's place the proper emphasis on everything. Most people will find the 0A3, 0B3, and 0C3 to their liking I suspect.

So.....here's my humble opinion on the order of tube rolling:

1. Buy some NOS rectifiers. No brainer.

2. Use the 0C2 and roll input tubes. Settle on the sonic signature that fits your source and musical tastes.

3. Try different tubes in the 0X3 family. They will ALL make the amp sound different. But the sonic signature will remain constant.

Good listening to all. This amp is truly magical.

"This amplifier is maddeningly revealing, and the good news is that with effort we can each find incredible sounds. OUR incredible sounds. Or you can take the amp the way Steve delivers it. . . and have incredible sounds!"

Lon,

When you mute your PWD, do you have any noise/hum coming from your speakers?

Does anyone have any additional thoughts on the JJ 6CA7s?  It sounded like they may have been cheap Black Treasure killers.

I sometimes wonder if these black treasures stunt the fullest emotional expression of these amps--other high end tubes have left me numb.  Things sounds very good as is, but I wonder if more pull might come from other outputs.

Gopher, I think the JJs are more than okay, quite nice.  But Shuguang-killers? Not so far. On a $4$ basis, maybe so, but then things get awfully subjective, as if they weren't already!

Not quite sure what you mean by "stunting the fullest emptional expression" of these amps, but that certainly hasn't been my experience. If it weren't for Steve offering the GTs as an option, I might never have considered them. As it is, I am glad I did. One thing I have learned, and as you and others have observed, is that it's not just the one tube that matters, it is the synergy of all of them together. I have the 0B3 VR running right now in my Torii, and it is sounding very, very nice. Bass seems rich, but not quite as fat as the 0A3 was sounding.  I have a couple of NOS Raytheon 0C2 for the other regulators, but expect some 0B2 to arrive soon. I have also tried a number of rectifiers, and have yet to settle on the one I like best. I have some 1950s RCAs of various typers that just arrived, and will start listening to just those soon. Again, it goes to that synergy issue. Every single change produces more than just the addition/subtraction of the one tube type; it also produces changes in the other tubes and the amp overall.

Don't know if you noticed it, but on the comments on the Tone Audio blog post about the Torii, one poster asked Jeff about his thoughts of the Torii as compared to the RWA Signature 30.2. Jeff observed the obvious (very different amps), and then commented on the fact that RWA is what it is, and short of a flavored pre-amp in front of it, there is no rolling the sound. In contrast, the Torii is a tube rollers dream. I would add "Or nightmare. Or maybe manic obsessive rabbit hole."

So, datman, you gonna unload those Treasures?

Hey Datman, Thanks for the input. Sounds compelling to me. I wonder if you could elaborate on what the JJs sound like compared to the Treasures. I like a lot of information too, but sometimes it comes at a cost of excessive brightness, hard edges, hyper realism etc. I am guessing this is not your experience, but since we all have different tastes, rooms etc...just wondering if you might describe the context of your preferences for these tubes.....the other tubes you are using with the JJs and what you love about the sound they give in your Torii.


PR, just wondering the same from you. I know you might not be there yet with burn in and adapting your new system, but if you feel like it, could you describe what you hear/like/dislike from the JJs and the Treasures, and what other tubes you are using.

Thanks guys!

Compare and contrast. Always fun, so here goes. The primary difference between the JJ's and the Treasure's lies in the extremes. When I first installed the JJ's my immediate reaction was "where did all this bass come from?" My system had never been bass deficient before, but all of the sudden I bass extension that simply was not there previously.

Initially the highs were a little rough. Because I have tinnitus I am very sensaitive to this. Once the JJ's were broken in, the highs smoothed out and now they go on forever with no edge or grit. The treasures also porduced excellent highs as far as they went, but not what I am geting from the JJ's. The one area that both tubes were alike is in soundstage presentation. The JJ's produce a fully formed image between my speakers complete with excellent 3d characterisitcs, as did the Treasures.

The one other area the JJ's exceed the Treasures is in micro detail. As I said in my earlier post, with the Treasures, I never really noticed any limitations in my digital playback. With the JJ's I notice there is not the kind of sonic differences I would expect when playing 24/96 downloads. What I attribute this to is the greatly increased resolution of tyhe JJ's. They have actually allowed me to hear the limitations of my Touch/DAC-1 digital front end.

So being the good neurotic audiophile that I am, I have ordered a Sonore Signature I2S output digital server and a DAC-2 with I2S support. From what I have been able to ascertain, this combo should allow me to hear EVERYTHING I couldn't with the Touch.  

I am using the following tubes:

JJ 6CA7 outputs
Svetlana NOS Blackplate 5U4G
0C2 and 0A3 regulators ( I didn't have much luck playing with these)
National 7DJ8 input tubes

My speakers are Musical Affairs Grand Crscendo KM30 SAG with PHY-HP coaxial drivers.

Preamp is a Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE.

Thanks guys! I appreciate that.

Very interesting to me too that for one the JJ highs are more extended and the other, they may be a bit rolled off! Indicates the synergy thing I think but then.....headphones versus speakers in a room.....Mannnn...too many variables!

I have definitely noticed a bump in all the various areas with certain tube combinations. The more subtle changes are expected, but the big bumps are always a surprise especially when it is bass extension. I guess this is due in part to the Torii can go down low if all else can. But the thing is that some combinations of tubes really impact one another more than others!

Wow, both of you sound like you are having a lot of fun!

They were from Grant Fidelity and they were graded A+.

I couldn't help myself. I bought some JJ6CA7s. I hate to comment much with them so new, but I have a couple somewhat interesting observations.

I played the tubes several hours last night, ran them all night without music, and played them with music about 6 hours today. I'd say not close to burned in, but I think they are just beginning to open up.

First impressions....dark, veiled and taught, but showing good potential, especially in the mid-mid and bass body and definition. But then I had been using cryo'd Ruby 34-Bs (very open and detailed) tempered by nicely warm Mullard 6922 pulls (darkish but nicely detailed), coke bottle OA3s (my warmest, big sounding VR), OC2, and 50s RAC 5U4G (darker/tighter/more liquid than 40s). So my whole set other than the EL34s was warmish/liquid oriented, making the EL34-B great. But with the new JJs....too dark.

So I changed to the brighter, opener, and more exuberant, but well balanced National 7DJ8s, 40s RAC 5U4G (opener), and sylvania coke bottle OB2s (sig like the RCA OA3 Coke bottles, but less push...gentler). Now I hear potential for these JJs, especially as they are beginning to come alive. They beautifully temper the bawdy nature of the Nationals that can show up with brighter tube sets. This is a nice sounding combination. Synergy is everything. I look forward to these 6CA7s after another 70 hours!

So Greg and Dat, do you have impressions as to the burn in time of these tubes?

I will do some direct comparisons with some other EL34s once they are there.

Yes, I don't envy the breakin time. I really have come to dislike it actually. But then, once over, if the choices were good, it is all worth it!!!

Your setup would be so amazing for tube comparison once burned in. I hope you will do a bit of it for us. Those Nationals all across the Ultra will certainly flavor your system in their particular way.

Have fun!

Will

The Nationals seem well balanced across the spectrum to me, though comparatively I find them weighted toward openness and exuberance. This is in part the 7DJ8 thing. Within this, they are revealing, so might set a good foundation for hearing subtle differences in other tubes! On the other hand, they could make a darkish/veiled tube seem otherwise and a more neutral tube seem brightish, so I see your consideration.

Of all the tubes I have tried, of the ones I like, most of what I can say is they are different. I would be hard pressed to name one input that is the most neutral. Especially since my experience is all based in one system/room, and as you have said, synergy with other tubes is a HUGE thing. The 6N1Ps I have tried I would classify more like Lon suggested....with the right synergy, good for presentation for a wide variety of recording qualities perhaps in part due to some "occlusion." For that, I personally can't use them, though I should go ahead and try some decent cryo'd ones through burnin.

Yep, you caught me, I was adding to my previous post. Thanks for the reference to the Voskhods. They are indeed very reasonably priced. And something relatively neutral in character is probably a good thing to have available. I noticed as I looked around the web that a number of different manufacture dates are attributed to these tubes. Still, the reviews generally seem positive, and the prices are reasonable. Looks like a dozen to go, please.

Will, thanks again for your reference to the NOS Tube Store. In my search for some of the Voskhods, I came across a fellow named Tom Scata who at one time had offered up 110 pairs of cryo-treated tubes. I contacted him, and he replied promptly, even though he no longer had any in stock. His reply came just as I was about to pull the trigger on a doze on eBay; here is what he said:
Quote:

Anyway, I decided not to do the eBay deal, and who knows, maybe I missed a good deal. Instead, I reached out to NOSTS, and they have the Zaerix you mentioned, about double of the basic Voskhod, but sounds worth the try.

Will, I appreciate your generous offer. I ordered 8 of the primo selection. I might in fact add some of the non-premium ones, just to have.

Like you, I have a sufficiently large tube selection, that I am likely to be able to make a tolerable combination out of something. Considering that 5 months ago, I owned none, this is a bit different landscape for me. In fact, I am starting to construct a little Bento database to sort the tubes and characterize them, so when I am dead and gone, my kids have something to go by.

Quote:


You're a gentleman, but no need. Koray has already processed my order. Given the number of 6922 "slots" in my amps, these present all sort of synergy opportunities.