Anybody here ever compare any Decware amps with any "real" First Watt amps?

They're low-power class A solid state amps with minimal circuitry (for those not familiar, First Watt is a side project of Nelson Pass of Pass Labs fame).

Anyway, I recently acquired clones of the First Watt F3 and F5 amps (built by Tim Rawson), and my SE84C+ just seems to sound way better than either of them.

However, I'm wondering if anyone's ever had a chance to compare a Decware SE84C+ (or other Decware amp) with a REAL (built by First Watt) F3 or F5 amp.

Unfortunately, I've never had a "real" First Watt amp.  But the F3 in particular was hailed by 6moons.com to be a solid state amp for tube amp lovers who don't want tubes.  However --  based on my experience with the F3 and F5 clones -- I still want tubes...

-- Mark Blair

Mark,

I also was able to compare an original F1 to three I think at the time to Decware amps. In my room for one week, gave me a real good view on the two manufactures.

The F1 with a pair of RL-3's was pretty amazing. The bass was the best I had ever heard from my RL-3's. Then I noticed what I was missing on the top end. Imaging wasn't there and the little micro detail on the top end was just plain missing.  

The Decware amps (I ran my CSP for a preamp for both set ups) were more harmonically rich as both you and Walt have stated, with out sounding too "tubey" while the F1 sounded sterile.

The bass was fun though.....

ZYGI

I haven't heard the First Watt versions, but I got to play with a 'real' Pass XA30 for a while, against a pair of SE84C+'s, using Klipsch forte II speakers.  My experience was similar to the others; a bit more bass solidity, less harmonic embellishment, and less imaging prowess (SETs rule the roost when it comes to 3-D holographic trickery).  The zens just image better, plain and simple, either one in stereo or bridged pair as monoblocks.  Bridged, the zens have similar bass drive as the Pass, at least as far as my ears would take it.

On the down side, and this is only a minor quibble, the zens hum, while the Pass was dead quiet.  This was not really perceptible beyond a few feet from the speakers (keeping in mind they are 99db/w/m, very sensitive), or when music is playing, but I know Mark Blair (OP) has been coping with hum in his extreme near-field setup.

[QUOTE:MB]I guess since the SE84C+ was my first foray into tube amps, I didn't realize how good it really was! [/quote]

There is no such thing as the perfect amp.  Decware amps, at least the SE84, is about the least expensive amp that provides a genuine, high grade, full blown SET experience (crystal clarity and 3-D imaging).  This isn't just a foray into tubes, but deep into the SET zone.  Welcome to the dark side.   

Steve's gear may not be the most expensive on the market, but they are the greatest values going, where more $$ may get you a fancier chassis, but not much (if any) improvement in sound.  He uses good iron and a simple circuit, which has been honed over the past 12 years or so through the production of a few thousand iterations.  For your first foray into SETville, you chose very well.  

The only amps I've heard which share Decware amps imaging prowess were, not surprisingly, other SETs, of the more expensive variety (Wellborne Labs, Wright Sound, Vaughn, Dodd, etc.).    Power supply hum, low power, and high output impedance go with the territory, but so does compellingly real sounding music, unlike anything I've heard with ss, even the unconventional Pass amp.  You gotta pick your poison, since nothing is perfect.  (Mark, the poison you've picked may have extra bitterness due to extreme near-field listening where the residual SET hum is audible...listen to Phil and Bobby, and 'take a step back!')

Block quote fail, but I tried. 
 




 

Well I have to take issue with the statement that power supply hum goes with the territory of SET amps / tube amps.

Not necessarily.    I have four old Magnavox console amps that you can barely tell are even turned on through my 104dB efficient Klipsch
La Scalas.    

I have a chip amp that produces more hum.  

Mark

I am in the middle of building a F5 amp right now and I have had a zen select for years.  Once I am done I will post what I think.  It may be a while though.

Although I love my little zen select amp, I just wish it had a bit more power so I could run more speakers.  I have used them with my parker 98's for years and I have been listening to a pair of EV eliminators with it lately.  The EVs do some things very well.  I may have to upgrade the crossovers and add better terminals.


Steve should make a zen using EL34 tubes.  I know he makes the dual mono but I think a lower priced zun with el34s would sell very well.