I'd like to start a general discussion on probably (IMHO) the second most cantankerous subject/problem in our stereo listening lives. The first being a vicious room response in the critical midrange and upper mids that has a tendency to just jump out and "bite" you in the ears.
Room treatment abound for that mess.

But this is about BASS. And that is a subject that rooms and speakers and recordings all conspire to give great puzzle and questions that arise in ones mind when some part just seems lacking in the bass or is "bloated" and overdone.
OH it's not that the bass is always bad or non-existent but just that certain places in the room suck out and others are rock solid and there is just no two ways about it. I've had some prevailing experiences which have lead me to the conclusion that speakers as good at producing great bass as all the pairs I have (6) are not the problem and have never been the problem. As simple minded and obvious as that may sound to more experienced audiophiles than myself, it is nevertheless a really vexing issue when you have a system that is doing everything right and then some piece of music you heard 100 times before fails to deliver what you expected in your mind to be the "impact" or power you thought was contained within. So you move to a boundary of the room and viola, there it is. Or at least some of it. Now this is all notwithstanding the stupendous soundstage and other goodies you've already dialed into your system. It is at least a given that you are getting some pretty palpable and amazing sound out of your equipment at this point. But I'm talking the last drop of room coupled, evenhanded, bottomless force that is in my estimation possible with as little as 5 watts if all is right.

Do you "cheat" with a well placed and dialed in sub? Or do you simply say "I guess I need a standalone custom built listening room", and proceed to tear down a wall or add a new "wing" to your humble abode. At this point I've gotten "results" by moving the systems (yes systems) to different rooms and occupying different walls in those rooms with many different characteristics in bass. In all my fussing I've had moments in my home where I thought it NEVER sounded that good to me EVER. Both bass power sound stage and the whole deal. And I was not smoking or drinking anything at the time. But one thing is for sure the sweet spot has NEVER been the "bass" spot, and the bass spot while not presenting a "perfect" sound stage was and is usually glorious enough to want to listen mostly from the "bass" spot rather than the sweet spot.

If some reading this have never availed themselves of going around your listening room while familiar material is playing then do so. Go even into the corners stand, sit, lay on the floor. You will understand a lot more about what your equipment and the room are doing with one another.

I'm going to end this first post and hope to get a serious discourse going on this subject so please weigh in as you feel so inclined.

Hi Chris,

Using the Imperial bass has always been very good. Recently I moved to open baffle and bass has moved into the fantastic league. Very realistic, great imaging.

The trade off is that perceived 'slam' is not as good. I have been considering adding sealed subs tuned for frequencies 70-120hz to get it back. But for now upright bass is the best I've ever heard.

No flames Denis! Nope this is just my attempt at having a shared dialogue of yours, mine and others experiences and see what comes out of it. Moving on for the moment to lower mids and upper bass. Those present unique challenges to how transparent or NOT an enclosed speaker driver sounds. That goes for bass horns as well as reflex and other resonant designs.

Open baffle is another thing and I'm glad you mentioned it Buzz! Because, (rhyme intended) I have not tried this yet on any scale that would produce well into the 30Hz region. It has been always my own experience that solid mid to low 30 Hz is required absolutely for music reproducing main front speakers. This is a point I cannot concede ever. I think that coherence of the whole spectrum down into 30 is a must in a pair of main stereo speakers Did I say that too many times?

That said referring to the upper bass region once again. If an enclosed speaker has "missing" bass in this area always they will sound a bit anemic. Transparent maybe but anemic for sure. If there is too much energy in this range (say 80 to 250 hz) you have many problems to overcome if you are a speaker enclosure. Not the least of which is resonant distortion and cabinet vibrations injecting their own sound into the room. Mind you, these are pet theories or ideas that I have no certain science to prove. I do things all the time (almost OCD) though, for example I feel the cabinet at high volumes, and watch the woofer excursion during some excruciating passages of material. Heck I've even positioned myself behind or between the wall and back of the speakers to see just what that part of the room sounds like. These little excercises tend to help me hear what is happening at the listening seat.
But I digress.

If your room and speaker position have characteristic increase or decrease in that upper bass region then the problems get really weird sometimes.

For example if the speaker is a bad example like say, a big bass reflex box from the 70's that sound rather chesty and bloated. Well in the right room that can be corrected by the rooms natural response IF your lucky. Now the bad resonance and "one noteness" of such an enclosure may still have it sounding less than ideal as far as a transparent boxless sound, still the room can and does sometimes help.

If on the other hand you have an enclosure that to my ears sound totally transparent with plenty of mid bass and deep bass, such as the pyramidal shaped radial designs Bob (Zygi) and Steve produce then that is where the room gets funny with a set of good speaker. The above example would have the speakers sounding thin but much more transparent due to the inertness and non resonant character of the cabinet structure. Nice sound but thin at the listening chair. Not saying that is what would happen. All else being equal if you moved then to a spot where the bass comes in nicely then you are positioning yourself in a sort of bass sweet spot with acceptable sound field or imaging. A compromise yes. I did this at DecFest often every year. I would pick a spot in the room that was not the center position but was where the bass was dialed in and everything seemed to be synchronized and balanced yet powerful and authoritative. NOT weak. I do this all the time at home. Take the above example with the bass reflex and move into the "bass" spot and you can get what has been termed "room boom". High bass like 150 to 250 Hz and it is a howling sound that is disgusting.

The above are hypothetical yet real anomalies I've experience in listening over many years. The extremes of bad sound have been eliminated for the most part because in the last 4 years I have been fortunate to be listening to better built, better designed speakers. Still the room messes with this nuanced and tailored sound regardless of how well appointed the speaker. I know this is to be expected in an average home environment. I've also been fortunate that all my listening spaces have multiple "outlets" if you will, such as doors, archways and open staircases that tend to evacuate spurious bass energy quite nicely. That is all well and good. I am headed toward taming all midrange and high frequency nasties with diffusors. But this is all about bass. Upper and Sub.

Open baffle bass into the 30 Hz region would be a commitment of space almost as great as a pair of Imperials IMHO. That said I know how good dipole bass can sound because Steve Deckert's Acoustats did it as good as I thing anything I've ever heard. Did it get into the 30's? Don't know. Sounds like it did. It was powerful and non resonant bliss. But it was also in a giant room and the Stats were some 8 to 10 feet from the the true room boundaries. Also anything as large as the Acoustats are going to have a "head in the vice" sweet spot and their size is a deterrent. They are an animal that needs "care and feeding".
A fast 10 or 15 inch sub driver in a door sized open baffle is even more cantankerous than those.

Besides the speakers are making plenty of bass down deep and very even and plenty of push and guts in the upper bass. Nope this is down to the goofiest part of room response and that is in the bass, both upper and sub. Any rightness in this regard and your system will "blossom" like you've never known it before. It will sweetly kick your a$$ like you never heard it before. I had moments of this sort of bliss and once it was with a perfectly dialed in sub and a second set of speakers that had the mid bass energy that was missing in the room. It was a rag tag setup that just would not stop. But it also had thing wrong with it imaging wise because it was a multi speaker set up. Instead a better thing would be to get a room right in the bass. And believe me I know how hard that is. The other time it came right is by brute force with just the main speakers. I put a solid state integrated with the Decware CSP 2 and a set of prototype Radials, which allowed tone control and down to DC bass capability. Still not an optimal setup for reasons I'll not go into. Not important. It was GOOD.  :o
But brute force is still not addressing the room problem. I say if we can get the entire bass spectrum of the room right then 3-6 watts will sound like a 1000 watts. I believe this wholeheartedly.

So commence the discussion gentlefolks!

For an example of the OB experience see what our friend Randy has done.

And, at that time Randy did not have the the new servo plate amps.

My setup is similar and have been able to flutter my pants legs when trying.

Dawg, I didn't know you were running OB!

Do you have any pictures? I am very curious about your setup!  

(And thanks for the music tip )

Dank,

Having perfect bass response at the sweet spot is far more likely to happen outdoors than in a square structure.  However, with no room gain the bass may sound light by comparison.  My experience is that if the source of the sound, ie speakers is backed up by a solid structure (stage or hill) so it has something to project from it is indeed perfect.

I can remember well some small private outdoor concerts under the moonlight that had some of the best bass I've ever heard.

Steve