BTW, I forgot to mention... this digital I'm referring to is 16/44.  My feelings on digital playback has always been grim, but once I discovered how to fix what's wrong with it at the DAC level I decided we all need to re-group and get what we have right before moving on to higher sampling rates.  Before my discoveries, it took 192kHz 32bit live masters to make me happy, and even then there was always a gap between that and good analog.  Now that it's fixed, 16/44 sounds 4 times better than the 192/32 did before this breakthrough.  Yes, 24/96 and higher will just be that much better with this technology (or lack of technology actually) so life is basically really good right now.  :)

Steve

I'd also be majorly interested in this DAC. Even though I have a DEC685 and DEC343 and also vinyl setups, recently I've been working on putting together a convenient, compact digital front end based on a mini ITX motherboard. Those motherboards are 6 3/4 square.

I've ordered and received all my parts, except for the Zotac ION-ITX-A motherboard which is back ordered. That's a dual core Atom CPU with the Nvidia ION graphics which would also allow me to use the system to do HD blu-ray playback. My CDs aren't organized and I spend a certain amount of time sometimes just trying to find a CD... so I wanted the convenience of a digital audio server, but still wanted it to sound nice.

A critical piece of the system is the USB DAC. Currently I have Yeo's USB Monica DAC and was planning on using that in the system. But that's also why I purchased the Decware Zkit4 and Zkit5 with the voltage tube regulation to back end the USB DAC.

I think a lot of people are currently using or are going to these sorts of PC based servers for their music.

Steve were you also going to offer a USB input variant of the DAC ?

Wow, exciting. Glad to hear you are traveling down this road Steve. Although I certainly love my vinyl digital does make a lot of sense for my office system and makes it much easier for my wife to listen to what she wants to during the day. I also believe that such things will bring more younger folks into the real world of digital audio coupling with music servers and such. We really need to get them away from iTunes garbage and help them discover what its all about. Look forward to seeing updates as you progress.

I'm going to pretend that I didn't ever see this thread.

(And it should be easy, like Karl I am very fond of SACD and this is not going to decode that, and I'm very happy with my digital playback).

Due to the limited time I have left on this earth I may have to be satisfied listening to the wonderful vinyl system I have built. It is great to know technology is still moving forward but I am stuck in the past.

Personally I'm skeptical about this DAC (or any DAC that claims to be as good as analog). Granted I don't have the Steve's reference gear nor do I have a properly treated room. But so far my measurements confirm my hearing and in due time I sent back the ZCD in favor of Metric Halo. The SE34I.2 has only 40-20000Hz bandwidth when loaded with HDTs and it confirms why I feel that a sub is needed. This may go against the mainstream attitude here but I would hate to discover that the DAC adds something that is NOT in the original signal, like random phase shifts, compression/expansion, dynamic equalization. I admit that all three mentioned are the natural phenomenon accompanying the cantilever moving in the groove. But I don't believe it can be artificially reproduced equally well for all musical genres.

30 day refund policy Karl!
Don

I spoke with Steve today as I want to hear his new dac before Decfest. So, I will be traveling to Peoria to hear the new dac, the mini Torii and speakers. I am very hopeful that the new Decware dac gets closer to good vinyl????!

This past weekend I participated in a local audiophile meeting hearing a tricked out, battery powered Red Point TT/Shroeder arm/ZYX Universe with Shindo preamp/Lamm monoblocks and it destroyed a well regarded (not brick) dac from Gordon in Cincinnati via a Mac Mini PC system.  Of course, we listened to Acoustic Sounds remastered 45s LPs, but these LPs sounded the closest to live that I have experienced. In fairness, Gordon's dac was much better than most highend CD players that I have auditioned this past year.  Digitial, even at the high end, still has many miles to make up to even approach highend vinyl.  

Since I listen to LPs as my primary source, I am searching for an OK dac at reasonable cost to backup my vinyl system.  Since I have a very good tuner and great local FM classical and jazz stations, CD playback has to excel or my sources will be only vinyl and FM.

having owned a few decware amps..that transparent nature of them, i'd be interested in this dac, especially if affordable (<1K).

ty - report back, preferrably on the same day you here it

Randy: You've phrased the question better than me, one I asked in a post above.
Given a simple system, ie: Zen Select, TS GG pre, & ZCD, how would the new DAC benefit ?
(curious)
Don

"Satisfying as good analog" were my words.  Since digital came out I have never found it satisfying like good analog.  Something has always been wrong with it.  It just doesn't caress me the same way.  I think what makes analog so good (besides the almost infinitely higher sampling rate if you will) is the timing.  Timing that properly defines pitch, timbre, dynamics and perhaps palatability.  

FIR FILTERS:

Are digital filters, making use of the time domain to create a frequency domain response. The basic thing is, that FIR filters introduce PRE-RINGING and POST ringing Like this:



This is how the square wave looks without the fir filter:



The idea here is that without the transients smeared around in time, the focus and basically everything will improve. Vinyl playback does not employ fir filters.

The other thing is the oversampling. There are other ways to improve the bit rate and reduce errors. Vinyl playback does not have oversampling.

Lastly jitter. To me this is almost the biggest hang up with digital since  it takes a world class transport, cables and re clocking device in the DAC to prevent it from becoming an issue. That's a bit depressing when you buy your first good DAC and find out you have to spend a small fortune on a transport and cables to hear how good the DAC actually is. For ten times less investment you could set up a modest vinyl rig and have superior sound quality.

USB:

If done correctly, both software and hardware, it is possible to get bit for bit transfer with up to 100 times less jitter than you would find in a typical CD player. Therefor the DAC will most certainly have a USB port and the piece of mind that comes with having 100% error free rips of your CD collection on the hard drive never to be scratched again.

Randy, I'm not sure where to put it in your list, but it will be a non-oversampling and non-filtered DAC much like the Zanden was. What it does better than the ZCD player is in a word, more organic. Images are tangible, music has more openness and is a little less forced.  Certainly it's a bit smoother too.  The DAC I'm hoping to show at the DECFEST this year will be a three stage affair with a tremendous amount of adjustability.  It can be made to sound warm enough to make sub par CD's almost listenable, but of course the voicing is being done around great recordings.

I just know that once I heard the oversampling and FIR filter eliminated, that "thing" about digital that irritates me so me much was simply gone.  In it's place was almost twice as much content in the high end.  Sounding like more dots on the line if you will.

My guess is the Zanden was a bit too thick and trying to sound like analog at any cost.  For that kind of money it was probably  over done too.  I could be wrong, but to make sure the same doesn't happen with this one, I have set it up so that the output can be directly of the DAC chips themselves - the ultimate in transparency.  OR, the output can come from the tube stage OR, the output can come from the finals being fed by the tube stage.  The finals are solid state and very adjustable.  This can be done on the fly while you listen.

It's capable of being highly focused - more so than an oversampling design, and with the extras it can be juicy rich.  Without any tone controls, the frequency balance can be leaned out or fattened up, and the dynamics can be brought out in a way that is not possible with virtually every other DAC I've tried.  You can quickly find that magic window where the dynamics begin to liberate themselves from the speakers and the weight goes a long way to making sound more like a good LP.  

So I'll leave you with that.  Right now I'm not interested in writing the papers on it, just getting it turn key for the fest.  I don't even know the price, but I have plans for simpler versions to follow it up so that everyone can afford something listenable in front of say a Zen Triode amplifier.

I'll certainly keep track of this tread, and try to post some pictures next month when I attempt a production build.

Steve

Hi Steve,
Will the new DAC connect to iPod with a USB to iPod adaptor cable much like a iPod interface with other devices? The iPod connector out feeds direct digital out to USB if I have my facts straight. That way any lossless digital copy on the drive that is 16/44 come right from the HD or SSD device into the DAC. Is this indeed what is being proposed? True hi-fi in your pocket.

Chris,

Despite what certain companies would have you believe, the IPOD 20 pin connector will not do a direct digital out without internal mods to the IPOD.

Boy that Wadia unit looks very similar to my Mac Mini.
My main computer rig for now until I must break down and get a new MacBook Pro.

It's a little disconcerting to think that a pure bitstream output of any computing device is so confusing for what should be a simple procedure.

Thanks for the quick reply Steve. I want to know more about this.
Maybe Apple can answer this definitively.


OH and I WANT to experience the "ecstasy" of which you speak!

can't disagree with the NOS philosophy.  ironic but it seems the more you spend on resolution, the less you enjoy the music (ymmv).  the least enjoyable dac i've heard was an upsampling 192k that sounded artificially enhanced and streched, lacking the natural timbre of how an instrument really sounds (musicians or fans of live unamplified music will know).

NOS designs though (like single driver speakers) are pretty tricky to get right in my experience...inherent higher THD, clipping characteristics, loading, etc...but if done right (like single drivers) can be the holy grail

wonder...what dac chip is chosen (tda??  pcm??).....and......the type of usb interface (adaptive or async?).  playing devils advocate but decware has always been forthcoming and candid about their designs.  in the end it won't matter if it sounds good (we know) but....

steve basically sums it up with his write up...but basically the part under "FIR FILTERS".

47 labs also has an article out there:
http://www.sakurasystems.com/articles/Kusunoki.html

that said, some actually think the cons out weigh the pros...like in this article:
http://hagtech.com/pdf/not16bit.pdf

the non over sampling philosophy is a good one, but imo the key is in its implemention to mitigate the cons.

The two papers are quite a good representation of the two views on oversampling vs. non-oversampling.

Myself, I have to go 100% with Kusunoki, who's excellently written paper demonstrates a fork in the road where engineers had to choose between frequency domain or time domain.  They chose frequency. They chose wrong.  As small excerpt from his paper:

Quote:


This 2.13ms is likely what gives consumer grade digital it's signature in my opinion.  And why I've always preferred listening to analog.   I would recommend reading both papers.  You'll see it's possible to make an oversampling DAC sound good which explains why there are so many that do.  However, only if you reduce the number of taps to keep the delay less than 2 ms.  Myself, after hearing a variety of NOS dacs, be they perfect or not, all had far less of whatever it is that makes digital sound so lame next to analog.

I highly recommend reading both papers.  However, I will admit that after hearing my first NOS dac I had to know why oversampling apparently ruins the playback and why 44.1kHz 16 bit Redbook format suddenly seemed to have many times more information in the top end, my biggest complaint against CDs.  I found Kusunoki's paper a refreshing and satisfactory explanation for what I was hearing and shifted my attention of figuring out what implementations worked best.

Steve