SE84C/S ULTIMATE UPGRADE CONSENSUS

Dear friends
I know that we are all interested in squeezing the very last ounce of pleasure out of our dear amps. And I also know that many of you have already gone through all kinds of attempts to reach audio nirvana. I also know that these mods have been discussed ad nauseam in many threads through  the years. BUT the truth is that these info are scattered in so many threads (and heads), and blended in each thread among so many  other side comments that it really gets impossible to figure these options out clearly (well at least for me it was so)

So I was wondering would you be willing in putting all the most successful (you know the “up-grades” that have reached some community consensus), in one single thread. And give them a grade from 1 to 10 in terms of how significant the improvement was (and the drawbacks if there are were any)

Might be this will be helpful to all the ones of us that are playing with the idea of getting their beloved amp modded for that last ounce of pleasure.

I would ask only two things of you, if you agree with me.

1. Stick to the SE84C and SE84CS, no other amps, options comparisons, just anything relating to these two amps and their components (open new threads for those may be???).

2. Give YOUR  direct personal impressions, if you haven’t done it but just saw it somewhere  please just link to the thread where you gathered the info with a brief title/description.

In this way, may be, we will be able to have one clear thread with all the different options spelled out for us freshers and not to think about.

Anything you tried goes, speaker and RCA posts, volum pots, resistors, capacitors, etc etc but NOT TUBES ROLLING.

Well thxs a lot and let’s se if we are interested in this.

I don’t have any experience with mods yet so I’ll start with  links (so i will not grade them) to two mods that might be interesting one it’s easy the other very promising, but not that easy (for me at least;):



Grid choke on Se84:
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=zen;action=display;num=11152...



Select EX Cathode Resistor Bypass Cap Surgery (or something to deal with hum)
Here http://www.geraldcurtis.com/selectex_mod.htm and here https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=zen;action=display;num=11057...



Francesco

Here's mine:

Send the amp to Eddie Vaughn.

Corey

[quote author=selmerdave  link=1130443165/0#1 date=1130462020]
Volume pot bypass a 2.  A very small difference, IMO outweighed by the advantages of having a quality volume pot in the chain.
[/quote]

Although I haven't messed with the passive parts as Dave has, I second the idea of keeping the alps volume pot.

I've tried the purist "straight in" jacks on my CS many times, and hear a noticeable difference compared to the inputs with volume control. Although there seems to be a gain in transparence with the purist jacks, the se84cs sounds best in my system through the volume controlled inputs, with the volume pot backed off to around 80% or so.  Then, any extra needed gain is made up with a preamp, upstream.

Why, I'm not sure, but it's more even and solid sounding all the way around with the input slightly padded.

Sometime I might do a diy a zen so I don't feel so bad about chopping up the nice Decware assembly work.

Karl

I can vouch for my EV modded "C".
Though I can say that depending on speakers and source the "C" as it is now may need taming in the bass which I really never thought could be possible with the "little" Zen. Less bass? I also have Jensen caps but I'm sweet for a set of the Mundorf SilverSupreme's for coupling caps in all my amps. Seeing how dave rated that particular tweak, I'd say coupling caps are pretty important. I know the Jensens sound great. I like "warts and all" detail but like a neutral and transparent sound. Too much to ask?

5 ohhh what about the silver fuse? if it's worth paying for same good power cable (and it is! i have tried it diy cheap and with good results) might be the fuse has an influence too?????


as for the power cord read this:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ttse.html

and this

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diycables.html

f

Lightbulb,


I have no idea what your goals are for your mods nor your associated gear, room, budget etc.

I have heard it said that the satisfaction of building and/or modding ones own amp adds to the enjoyment later on etc. Personally I just don't buy that, it either sounds great(not good) or it doesn't. Quite frankly, if you are in the realm of hi-fi meaning if you actually have some efficient, resolving speakers then you know the fine balance required in components and speed when dealing with this level of fidelity.

I would say that compiling a list of mods then picking and choosing or doing all of them recommended is a recipe for an incoherent disaster. The variables involved in a simple tube amp are huge. Sure, anyone can build a paint peeler but in the end the analytical novelty gets boring, very quickly.

I have read over the past 4 years on these forums about this tweak or that, the veil lifting, the seperation etc. etc. and every change is lauded as for the better. Quite frankly, I suspect many are simply stroking their ego's in bragging to others that they can sling some solder.

In the end, it is all about musicality and pulling you in. If that is your goal then ask yourself if you really think you can pull this off? Do you even know what to listen for in attempting this great feat? Are you ready to put in the many, many, many hours required to get it right?

Forgive me for hi-jacking your thread, just trying to save you some wasted time and point you in the right direction.

Corey

Dear Corey

This thread had to be only about mods and the subjective perceptions of the ones that did try some mods, but that’s the way it goes, so I have to explain why I am interested in modding in general and the amp specifically, so let me start saying that

I disagree with you on some important points
Modding your amps cdp etc etc is indeed a long and at times risky process, but is absolutely worth it if the process is the reward along with the music reproduction improving along. Since I embarked in this adventure, mostly thanks to my first significant purchase, my beloved SE84C, I have gone trough a huge list of listening experiences. The have cost me money and time. But I can tell you a fraction of the money that the shops were asking me for this or that magic component, and a lot fun in the process. The improvement of my system has been IMMENSE since the beginning. And the amazing thing is that the key components have remained the same. My amp the SE84C and my speakers the Audio Note AZ Three that are simply a spectacular combination of cheap and amazingly well engineered components .

Following suggestions from steve and others about cabinet treatment, reading and (listening in shops to systems far far away from my reach) understanding literature on the subject of wire design and material, and NOT BUYING the snake oil products, idea, but just trying to understand the logic and physics of this and that I have gone a LONG way towards my audio nirvana.

BASIC lesson learned, your system, your hears, your music scope. Mixing component is like cooking someone said. And I do strongly agree. It’s all in the balance of the ingredients. I have been listening, changing, and re-listening and getting a taste for each single component, mostly thanks to two very well balanced elements, my amp and my speakers. I trusted that if something sounded “wrong” to me must have been because of the wrong combination of components, basically I trusted the amp to be the AMAZING product that it is, and the speakers to be the amazing reproducers that they are. I went full circle to also realise that same “common knowledge” was many times the answer.

ALL I use know is VALVO and Siemens Cca, Mullards el84, and Mullard rectifiers. Best combination for me period. I was told I did not believe it, I know now after may be 20 different types of valves in MY system, some do it nicely, but NOT for my anymore.

Cables NOTHING else but “single core silver cables” from the power cord to the interconnects etc etc, same cables throughout the system, just different gouge according to position. Tried them all …well many or enough to understand what I liked and what not (and learned a lot… bottom line most cable makers are steeling your hard earned money!, you can do it for a fraction of what they ask), once you have found some good silver cable of the reel, I did,  if they sound bad, harsh, thin, something is wrong with your source, power (yes mains power makes a huge difference) or somewhere else. (certainly not your amp and definitely not my speakers because I heard them in some amazingly expensive Audio Note combos and the harsh sound of the tweeter simply wasn’t there, so it had to be somewhere else and I bought a tubed DAC .

I worked to the overall MACRO level of the system (and I would suggest to do that first always). I have now reached a balance where I know that the next level of improvement is in the MICRO level, namely components.

The difference in component does make a difference in a well-engineered product. Look at this:
http://www.audionote.co.uk/dacs/dac_index.htm
the difference within each type is only in the components, the design is good in the first place, then they improve the components. Truth is if you know what you are doing you’ll save yourself a lot of money. The drivers used in my speakers for example are exactly the same used in the TEN time more expensive models. Audio note charges a fortune for changing the cables inside, and the cabinet to a better material. Or this generic cap to a copper PIO that you can get for a fraction of the price. You want get their perfection, but for a fraction of the price certainly the 80% of that improvement.

SO Bottom line. STEVE has produced a superstar in the audio world, and at a reasonable price. But to keep that price he has developed a recipe with ingredients with the best price performance ration, I guess. Changing things, might spoil the balance, but changing things knowing what to change and with what can improve things significantly  … and there are proves of that (think of the ex mod for example to adapt to speakers impedence). Now changing this or that again is just a matter of system balance and taste, and i would not get there before having balanced the all system, but once you have done it, changing specific ingredients might be fun and worth the effort if you are willing to experiment.

To know what a community has already done with one amp and with what subjective results will certainly help to decide what to experiment with, at least for the ones that are interested in doing it for whatever reason.

And just that you know, the AMP will be certainly the last thing I will change, it still lets me ear a lot of the weaknesses of my system and only once they are gone I will decide if to move to the amp.

f

Lightmaster,

Wow good posting. I agree; very well said. I can see you're putting in work to make something out of this thread, and the least I can do is help by describing ONE of the many mods I've done. Of the multitude of possible mods, this one is very important. It can make or break the amp, as it is the first thing the signal sees. And no matter how good the components are down stream, it will be tainted by it. It's the volume pot. Also consider that it is only component the signal sees that has moving parts.

Now first I want to say that the stock ALPS pot is a wonder of value, and it simply wouldn't be sensible for Steve to put some expensive pot in his amps. Having said that, as good as the ALPS is it does have a couple shortcomings. Well, what more can be expected of a 3 dollar pot

I give due credit to EZ_Angus for pointing out the PEC carbon pot in the thread below. It's a milspec pot made for the Canadian military.https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Tubes;action=display;num=111...



This was quoted on the diyAudio forum. Not sure who said it. Probley diyhifisupply.com

Quote:


If you've seen the majority of audiophile potentiometers out there, you've probley given some thought as to how it would be possible to fit them into the Zen's chassis. Well, the PEC pot is as big as any. About an inch every way. And I wanted to use the stock location. The thought of punching a hole into the front of the chassis doesn't appeal to me.

If you've seen the inside of the Zen and paid attention to the size of the ALPS pot, you already know that it just barely fits between the back wall and the speaker binding post. And the PEC is twice as thick, and much fatter round.

I went ahead and ordered it. Figured I'd work out the details later. Well, when it arrived I realized the threads where a size thicker than the stock ALPS. The though of widening the stock hole went though my mind.

I wouldn't know that it was possible until I had the stock pot and binding post removed. Right away I found out that Steve had made accommodation for a different pot by punching a larger than necessary hole for the ALP. The PEC just slid right in.

Now, to deal with the binding post. Here's what I did.



I loctited the rear bolt to hold in the post, and ground it down to a minimal thickness. Just enough to make clearance. I then ground a dimple for the secondary wire to be soldered in. This maintains clearance, and holds solder nicely. Also necessary was cutting the plastic grey washer in half. Yea, the binding post is only being held in by one bolt now. But from the top you really can't tell.



Here it is completely installed. Don't forget to insulate the rear binding post from the outer can of the pot. This pic was before I took a can of pressured air to it, so don't mind the metal flakes. I used the same cotton insulated solid core silver throughout. I've used the same stuff for interconnects and for the internal wiring of my DAC. Great stuff.

The first thing I noticed about it, before listening, was just how stiff the pot is. I still need to buy a 12mm OD volume knob for it to make things easier. It's just too hard to turn with the bare hand. While this may seem inconvenient, it tells me that this thing has excellent contact.

So how does it sound? It's an improvement across the board. In two words 'more refined'. It sounds much more velvety and relaxed yet resolves more detail. It has been said to be more dynamic. And I agree with this. What I've noticed is that at louder levels the amp seems to tolerate quick crescendos and peaky peaks without slipping. Before I would've been tempted to turn the volume down a bit.

But most appreciated is the way this pot handles music at lower levels. It retains a nice balance at all but the lowest volume setting (barely audible).

One thing I noticed with the old pot, was that it had a sweet spot. I even marked it with a marker, so that I could find it quickly. Very often I would adjust the volume by ear until it sounded it's best and later find that I had it right on the mark. I read elsewhere that there can be inconsistencies in the plastic carbon elements which cause anomalies such as this.

The PEC sounds great at any setting which has been most welcome considering every recording has a different level.

To put it another way, I now have no ambition to build or buy a pre amplifier.

I hope this satisfies, at least in part. Now lets get this ball rolling!

-Brett

Dear Brett
The post you made is more than welcome, this is really something I was looking into . and your description and EZ_Angus suggestion have just given an answer to what I was looking for (the images are the cherry on the cake). When you will have the time, I would really like to know the effects of the caps that you used to replace the atoms, is it a Black Gate 47+47uf or the Elna Cerafine?

Needless to say any other info on your mods is more than welcome when you have the time.

IMPORTANT!
I decided to create another post that I will call

SE84C/S ULTIMATE UPGRADE CONSENSUS (Results)

in this new post I will order all the posts from this thread with the actual mods and their description. This will give us a clear reference post with all the ideas, mods and impressions, and will allow us

to discuss and ask questions about the mods IN THIS ONE.

I am willing to take the time to do this, because I have learned more in one day then in months of clueless searching around.

thxs a lot to you all and keep posting, use images if you can and don't forget to give us your impressions on the mod if you have done it personally.


francesco

please guys
the aim of this post is to discuss individual mods that YOU have done so that we can LEARN about them and their effects.

tell us about mods that YOU have done and describe them,

i want to learn!!!!

i don't want someone to cook it for me (sorry must be me being an italian born grown man and yes it's true a good chef at times is the best solution, but this is a cooking course CAPISH

f

i know jerry
i linked to your web site in the first post of this thread!

Quote:


Sorry.  I missed that.  On the home page, at the bottom, you can see the latest modification.  I have to update my mod page soon to include impression on changing the OPT's.

[quote author=Hotsauce  link=1130443165/15#15 date=1130611113]Brett:

Did you upgrade the internal signal wire too?  Whats that black techflex covered cable I see?

John C.
[/quote]

Hi John,

The cable is a DIY VenHaus design shown here

http://www.venhaus1.com/diysilverinterconnects.html



First wrap a couple silver wires around a 1/4" tube of Teflon in a double helix. Drill the ends and pull the wires to the inside. On an interconnect one wire would be positive and one negative, with an RCA at each end. But for the internal wiring of the Select, each is positive right and left channel.

The neat thing about this design is that each wire is separated from the other by 1/4", and it is still twisted for field.



Back before VenHaus was selling finished interconnects, their DIY design had a shield version that goes like this.

Once the spacing of the double strands is proper, wrap Teflon tape around them at regular intervals with just enough thickness at to be able to slide the thicker Teflon tube over them snugly. Next will come the shield itself, and so this keeps the silver wires nearly 1/4" away from the shield at all times. The Teflon wrap keeps the inner tube centered, and also provides damping.



Next slide the shielding on, solder the ground wire to the shield, ad techflex and shrink tube. Always solder the ground wire to the source.

I've wired this same design through my DAC, interconnects, and finally through the Select. I like what I'm hearing

-Brett

by the way for the ones of us that are on the other side of the atlantic this is a place where you can get silver wire and the cloth isolation at a good price

http://www.jacmusic.com/wire/

there is another place where you can get it, but i'll tell you asap i will try to get a deal for us Decware freaks ... this is the monocrystal wire i am talking about, does it make a difference you ask? YES! it does (at least considering the two silver wires of the same gouge i have tried) and again in my system in my universe
f

It's worth the effort alright. And if you already have some silver, heck why not? Though I would suggest running 12" of silver signal wire in your amp while the rest is copper wouldn't be nearly as effective as replacing all of the signal wiring in your system with silver.

Also, replacing your signal wires is probley one of the last things to do while tweaking. There are other things to spend money on first that have more effect. But since you already have it

Your link for silver wire looks good to me. Wow 12ga silver, bet that isn't cheap.???

The link with the cap camparison was discussed in an earlier thread. I think people agreed it was good, but you might look for it to be sure.

-Brett

Sorry, I can't speak to the difference between the twited pair vs. what I did. Supposedly the lack of interaction between the negative and positive strands sounds less colored. Possibly more extended. But since I build this design from scratch, I couldn't do an A/B.

Just guessing, but I bet the difference is pretty minimal. And they are a pain in the arse to make

-Brett

If you don't want DIY, I like the Alpha Sterling Interconnects. I haven't tried the active shielding version.  Very nice sounding.

BIAS SWITCH

never use the bias switch, and always keep it in one position?

here it is a easy mod for you, read this thread: thxs to ludo

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=zen;action=display;num=11267...

francesco

2 Coupling Caps Mundorf Supremes are the rage TODAY, no doubt before long something else will be the rage.  A couple of years ago, Hovlands were the rage, it was all you would read about here.  Then Jensens were the rage, the unanimous choice.  Then it was teflon.  And now Mundorf.  So "the rage" varies, no doubt the Mundorfs are excellent but I would keep in mind that it is not absolute.

Dave

Moding, I've found is very personal.  For instance, there are those who love tone and others love timing, some listen more for the message others information, there are others who like the comfort that goes along with using expensive audiophile approved parts.   "Hey, I used the best part, right? It was very expensive!"  Of course audiophile parts have their place, the amp's circuit should be viewed as a unique whole.   The circuit itself is the prime mover not the parts.  The right parts combo is what you need and that might mean none or very little in the way of audiophile parts.  You have to listen.

I've experimented with the zen amp for literally 1000+ hours.  I tried all kinds of expensive and generic parts all over the amp.  The only audiophile approved parts that stayed were tantalum resistors in 2 spots.  Everything else is quality but fairly run of the mill stuff.  

The best circuit made by decware was the original "B", IMO.  It is different from the "C" you have in some pretty major ways.  If you like a "zen like" experience it is the one for you.  Very silent backrounds and perfect timing with very high res are its hallmarks.  You can find the circuit schematic in the kit building instructions area.  I use this circuit with some minor adjustments.  The decoupling resistor is 10k(like the "C") not 15K and the bias on the input tube (the 1.5k and 2.7k in parrellel which comes out to 960R) is more like 1.2K, I use no decoupling 4uf cap.  

Anyway there are other changes that were made when decware moved from the "B" to the "C" such as different power transformer and resistors.  The original "B" sounds very different from the "C"  Maybe something to look into.

Less is more.  The right combination of kinds of parts is the most important, where to use metal oxides, metal films, tantalums, electrolytics, polyester films, polypropylene, will win the day not the "brand".

Here's a quick tweak:  replace the (2) 2.7k bias resistors in parrellel with the 1.5k metal film resistors with metal oxide types.

Good luck and have fun!

by the way as promised this is the link to the best and convenient (i would not say cheap, but really amazingly priced when you compare to what they ask around) it is a all silver, single core, single crystal! (otherwise called occ silver) you can find in europe!

the gentleman selling the cable is i think one of the most honest and kind persons i ever met in the business, i have bought from him many times now, plain and simple nothing gets close to Heinz customer care ...


http://www.occ-silver.com/index.htm

the section for the silver wire is called Silverwire-Reinsilber


francesco

[quote author=lightmaster  link=1130443165/30#33 date=1130935433]a lot of response, that's nice

these are some of the questions that still did not receive an answer, any one has experience with those:

1 did anyone try to substitute the two atoms caps with black gate 47+47uf 500v? they are said to be spectacular, is it true?

2 coupling caps, it seems mundorf silver gold are the rage, any one tried them in a se84c/s?

3 and what about RCA plugs, power switch, speakers posts? what about an all silver Audio Note rca and speaker posts make over?  

4 ohhh what about the silver fuse? if it's worth paying for same good power cable (and it is! i have tried it diy cheap and with good results) might be the fuse has an influence too

soon I will open the new thread with some of the suggestions received, any other suggestions more then welcomed naturally

francesco
[/quote]


Something that would make a larger difference/improvement then all of the above added together would simply be to use our DHC-1 silver/teflon power cord with it.  Would cost a lot less too.

https://www.decware.com/newsite/powercords.htm

[quote author=Steve Deckert  link=1130443165/30#42 date=1134017011]


Something that would make a larger difference/improvement then all of the above added together would simply be to use our DHC-1 silver/teflon power cord with it.  Would cost a lot less too.

https://www.decware.com/newsite/powercords.htm [/quote]

Steve,

What has been your experience with adding the DHC-1 cord to the ZBox? Has it offered a large improvment in the sound as well?

Take care,

Corey

I seen a few posts where a Standby switch was added. I'd like to know more about how to do this. Perhaps someone has thought of a better way to do it than I'm thinking of.