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Using a preamp with gain and volume control (Read 49 times)
Karl
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Using a preamp with gain and volume control
Today at 20:17:15
 
Hi all,

I have been using an Aric Audio preamp to drive my Torii MK IV.  It is a good combination and both amplifiers use point to point wiring, good parts, simple circuits and VR tubes.  The preamp has a pair of 60s Bugle Boy 12AU7s and is nice and transparent.

I have never used a tube pre before this.  I have also never used a preamp with a gain control and a volume control. I noticed right away that the signal distorts if the gain is too high.  My approach has been to set the Torii's volume at around 80%. The volume control on the preamp is a motorized Alps.  That ends up at about 40% when I back off the gain so there is no audible distortion (to my ears).  

I have read plenty about riding the gain here. My summary is try higher input levels to the Decware amps and see if you like the sound better. I have little experience with setting gain on a pre however.  Is this similar to a bias control on amplifiers.  Higher gain = higher tube bias?  Should I aim for minimal gain on the pre?

What approach would you guys take? What should I listen for?

This isn't a big problem, the system sounds amazing, but I want to learn more.

-Karl
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Digital: Bel Canto E1X Analog: Rega P10/Lyra Etna SL/Sutherland Mini Loco Mk II Pre: Aric Unlimited II, Amp: Torii Mk IV Speakers: Zu Union 6 Supreme
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Lon
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Re: Using a preamp with gain and volume control
Reply #1 - Today at 21:13:50
 
I advocate playing around and experimenting. I have ended up with a lot of gain coming out of the preamp with the gain/volume reduced on the amp. In my systems thsi brings body and texture to the overall sound and suits my rooms and tastes. A very different presentation can be summoned by reversing that method. And gradations in between the two methods.
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Dominick
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Re: Using a preamp with gain and volume control
Reply #2 - Today at 22:05:43
 
Gain riding/ structuring is a great tool to enhance the sound of your system.   Its subjective on what sounds good to you based on your system.  In my systemI max out my DAC to 4V via the XLRs into my ZBIT when I am using my Tori MKIV.  With my pair of Zen SE84C+ that are configured as monos, I dial back the ZBIT to 80%.  When the signal hits my CSP2+, I generally like to run that higher and my amps lower.but that sometimes depends on which preamp tubes I am running.

Like Lon says..you just have to play around with it until you find what sounds good to you.  Running the preamp high and the amp lower, and vice versa will give two different distinct sound signatures.  Good luck and happy experimenting!
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will
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Re: Using a preamp with gain and volume control
Reply #3 - Today at 22:12:02
 
Sounds to me like the Torii gain may be set too high for the gain levels you are trying to achieve from your pre?

Right now, I use a Zstage, then a CSP3 and Torii IV, and am definitely an advocate for adjusting the pre-stage voltages going into the amp for optimal sound, and not using the pres as volume controls... more voltage from your Aric pre will very likely feed the amp a more pronounced signal... Like Lon and Dom suggested, that sounding different depending on settings, the signal bigger and more intense, or leaner and less intense.

For me, in the optimal range, the signal the amp gets from my pre has more lucidity, more visceral clarity, greater dynamics (macro and micro), more density and weight.... But not over the top in any of these areas.... where all these can be taken too far with the pre set too high .... the signal becoming too dense, too punchy, too in your face, too dark and weighty. So I go for a balance that is more lucid (compared to just the amp), enhancing density, dynamics and clarity while also enhancing fine detail and space. The pre set too strong, the sound can become impressively dense and dynamic, but also can tend to concentrate the natural harmonic musical characters too much, signal density overwhelming inner detail, micro detail and space, and thus, in effect, masking subtleties of air, textures, and decays.

I think it is better to imagine it as "riding the gain s," where we find a balance between the pre and amp for favorite listening volumes, that balance making the system sound best whether the volume is achieved with more on the amp gain setting or by more on the pre setting. One thing for me that got me into gain riding, was that my amp tends to maintain similar qualities within a good listening volume range, whereas, my pre stages change the signal sound and volume. So I tend to use the amp as the primary volume control. But when listening in my optimal volume range, changing recordings, I use both for minor volume changes depending on what recordings I am playing... fine tuning the sound to denser and more powerful with the pre up a little for lean or less dynamic recordings, and the pre down a little and the amp up a little for recordings that are too dark and full.

I have had problems with distortion using the ZRock2 and ZStage, especially with more than one pre stage in sequence and while using higher power input tubes in one of them. Not clear on just why. I can enjoy sound qualities of some 12AT7s (in the right company), but to avoid distortions with the gains balanced in ways I prefer for more obvious sound qualities and nuances, I need the more relaxed 12AU7s in these small boxes, or perhaps a tube in between 12AU7s and 12AT7s, like E180CC in one of them. In my setting 12AU7s are more reliable for avoiding early distortions in the Torii.

I wonder which Aric pre you have? On a quick perusal, I noticed some have an additional gain adjuster... another potential way to optimize tube/pre sound while toning that adjusted signal down or up with what looks like an output gain adjuster.
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