Ok, some backstory.

Years and years and years ago, I purchased a Decware phono pre-amp. This was the model before the ZP3 and it had a separate power source. It was a nice component with a step up option, but I was not big on vinyl at the time and I sold it to someone on this forum. I can't remember who.

Anyway, years went by and I ran into someone that was big into vinyl and, once again, I caught the bug. I went wild and I purchased a ZP3, base unit, nothing special. To me it didn't sound a good as the original Decware unit that I had before. So, I went nuts and I swapped tubes and power cords and interconnects and nothing helped. Then I purchased a ZROCK2 in hopes that it would help, and it did, some, but not enough.  I still think the original Decware preamp has a better sound.

Just to be clear, I also have a CD setup that sounds amazing.

Anyway, I digress.

The ZP3 and the vinyl gear gathered dust. After time I purchased a Lehman Black Cube SE II, solid state, which I think got me closer to what I wanted to hear. I fully expect the vinyl setup to souond at least be as good as the CD playback, if not better. That, at the least, is what I want. The ZP3 is now the backup unit, and sits on a shelf and mocks me.

Then, this Dynagrid thing reared its head.

Then, I read Lon's post.

Then, I thought, it sounds like Lon has gone through alot of trouble and money to get his system connected to the Dynagrid and then to get his system to sound as good as it did before he had it connected to this new component. At least, that's what I got from the subtext. I didn't read all the posts. There were too many and my mind drifted to something else. At the end Lon probably finds true happiness only the way Lon can find it.

Again, I digress.

Anyway, what would a Dynagrid do to that ZP3 that stares at me in anger?  I'm not looking for the kind of subtle change in texture and richness and space and and soundstage and all that crap that a man in his 60s can't even hear. I'm looking for the kind of differnce you can hear between a Roland JC120 and a Marshall JCM 800 at any age.

So, is it worth the money and the effort or will I end up where I am today? I'm not buying another preamp. It is either the ZP3 or the Black Cube. That's it. Oh, I did buy a Schiit pre-amp that on some vinyl selections did sound better than the ZP3 but disregard that. Once again, there, I digressed.

Thoughts?
Ideas?

Hello, Lon.

The ZP3 is a challenge.

The current amp I use is a Cary SLI-80. It is basically a bigger version of the blue Torii to some degree. And this amp has 2 rectifiers. Adding the Dynagrid to this amp would be very expensive. The blue Torii has solid state rectifiers and isn't a match. Too bad.

Thanks, Steve.

I've got homework.

I was about to try my DGJR in my ZP3 but had some background noise appear , either noisy tube or cap issue. Put it on the back burner. If it happens while this thread is still moving Ill report back. I never rolled rectifier tube in ZP3 form memory it has 5U3 wing C in it.

I did have 2 Zp3's at same time. A standard and a Annv upgraded. The standard sounded better than my annv upgraded model so I sold the better sounding one for some reason. I do that often not sure why. Guess I figured since all the upgraded caps were in place already it would be easier to cap swap at some later point if needed and keep its Annv status.

My Schiit mani never even sounded close to either of my ZP3's . Keep in mind I was never using super pricey carts or uber high end arms. Probably most expensive combo would have been Shure sme3009 III with a V15III cart or a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood in common factory arms. AudioQuest Ruby mc , Goldring E3 etc..... nothing close to Steve's reference set up.

Ill swap some tubes in ZP3 to try and chase away the rustling noise and then pull my DGJR off shelf and try again.

I did pick up a Sun Valley phono stage and at this point I cant really decide on a favorite between it and ZP3. Too many tube rolling options in the Sun Valley as well.

Ok, so here is where I am.

Steve stated that break-in could be between 100 to 250 hours.  So far, I have about 20 or 30 hours in place from continous listening.

Steve stated changing the rectifier and tone arm cable capacitance.  Capacitance is what stuck in my head.

I went modern. I connected to ChatGPT and prompted for suggestions. ChatGPT suggested changing the tubes to Mullards for an improved sound, which I did. At this point, the Lehman was still ahead.  The sound was still muddy which I prompted to ChatGPT. Then, I concentrated on the cable capacitance. Chat asked for the turntable, and cartridge I used and then suggested I use a high capacitance cable instead of the low capacitance that I've always used.  Low capacitance is all that I have.

Searching for a high capacitance cable wasn't that difficult. But, they are harder to find that low capacitance cables. I chose a custom, high capacitance cable from Blue Jean. It was a cheap cable.

So, I plugged it in and at first, some difference.  In fact, it was kind of shrill, but the muddiness disappeared. After a few hours it seemed to have calmed down. Either that or I got used to the shrill effect.  After several days it seems the ZP3 is at least as good as the Black Cube, and maybe, maybe, maybe better. I like listening to the early Police recordings on originally released vinyl. They are starting to sound good, better than before.

I am not big on changing cables. It all seems apples to apples, but low to high is apples to something other that apples. It sounds like the high cap cable is doing the trick. Maybe the other tubes I have will now make a difference.

I'll let you know after 100 more hours. This is my last attempt at making the ZP3 and vinyl, as it is, work for me. Hopefully, this does it.

Hi Match.

Couple of things.

JMO, but the only cart you have that is up to par with the equipment you have is the MP-200. The others are entry level, with the MP-110 just above that. You are handicapping your setup with those.

The other is cabling. When you have the level of equipment that you have, everything in the chain matters. Call Steve tomorrow and ask him to make you cabling to replace the Blue Jean cables you just got. This will make a difference.

And while you are at it, you should also have very good power cables. I have heard drastic improvements with all of these cable upgrades. I am not saying that you must buy Decware cables, but IMHO, they are the best value per dollar spent.

I do not own, nor have I heard the Dynagrid, so how that factors in, I can’t say.

Best, Geno

Cartridge MP500H
Table SL1200
Cable 1/2 meter DSR3
Stage ZP3

Also, the stock mat must be upgraded.  We use Funk Firm APM.

Despite the high capacitance (or because of it) the DSR3 cables sound great in this setup.

Hey Matchstikman. I’ve gone down a similar rabbit hole with a new phono stage, so perhaps this may be of some help or at least some commiseration. I recently upgraded my phono stage from a Sutherland Insight (SS) to a Manley Chinook (tube), both using a Hana ML cartridge. My Insight went to a friend the day I got the Chinook. The Chinook is twice the price, so should have easily bested the Insight. But initially I had some buyers remorse. There were things I really liked about the Manley, especially the improvement in detail and soundstage, but I think it was also more revealing of issues in my system and with being more resolving, it showed some harshness on the top end, with some sibilance on some recordings. It is a used piece of gear, so break-in is not the issue. I went through a lot of trial and error to try to get things right.

First, cable capacitance is a thing, most importantly with the phono cable. As you’ve seen, different cables can help tune your system. I have been using a DSR3 (0.5m) with my Insight for years and it sounded excellent. Brought out a lot of detail and top end sparkle, while retaining all of the good stuff below. But on the Chinook, I ultimately found the high capacitance was too much. The DSR3 is listed as 923 pF/m. Steve confirmed that may be the issue for me. I tried a 1m length of Blue Jeans LC-2 cable, which is spec’ed at about 36pF/m. This tamed some of the “heat” on the top end, but didn’t resolve it. The problem was I found it to be muddy as well. Ultimately, I got a 0.7m length of 7N pure silver Audio Sensibility Signature Phono Cable. Some believe silver brings a more tipped up treble and can be thin and harsh on top, but the pure silver has actually been a very balanced and pleasing cable. It took a week to settle in, but I am very happy with the results and it made a significant improvement. These are spec’ed at 88pF/m. Additional tinkering with cartridge loading on the Chinook tamed things even more. With the cable swap, I was able to raise the loading over the recommended load settings for the cartridge and not have the treble get too hot.

Next I’ve been trying different tubes. I did try a set of Mullard PCC88’s and though they have sounded really good in my preamp and amp, they were not detailed enough for me in my phono stage. Maybe a tad soft. I’m working on fine tuning my preferred tubes now.

The last thing I tried that made a good bit of difference is to drop the input gain on my CSP3 a notch. I know it is generally recommended to use the input gain for adjusting volume for headphone use and otherwise keep it on max, but dropping it a notch didn’t seem to change anything on the volume level, but did in fact help tame the hotness quite a bit.

The other consideration is that I’ve had my cartridge for a few years and perhaps the stylus is wearing and causing some of the sibilance and harshness on the top end. The cable change, impedance loading, tube and gain setting changes have gotten me significantly closer to where I want to be than I was at the start, so I’ll see how things go for a while before thinking about a re-tip or replacement of the cartridge. I’m thinking I have a few good months or more left on the cart.

Steve mentioned the ZP3 can take 100-250 hrs to settle in and you said you have about 20 or 30 hours on it. I think you’ll find a significant change to the sound till you hit about 100-150 hrs. Glad you’re sticking it out before thinking about selling it off. You may be very pleasantly surprised at how things smooth out and begin sounding much better, with a little time on it. OTOH, It may turn out it’s not your thing, but at least you gave it your best shot.

There are things I miss about the Sutherland, but there are more that I love about the Manley right now and I no longer have regrets switching. It wasn’t an easy swap and took some work, but has been worth it. I did have days when I thought I really messed up and started looking around on USAM, but as I’m sitting here now, things have never sounded better and this Chinook is really revealing herself. Good luck and hope you end up in a similar place.

BTW, I like your taste in music!. I was listening to Reggatta De Blanc the other night and heard things on Walking On The Moon I’d never heard before. During the outro starting with the part with the echo effect on the hi-hat, there is a sound almost like helicopter rotor blades that increases, while turning liquid and then suddenly cuts off, to repeat. I’ve listened to that album since it came out and never heard that before! Also, a big fan of Tool.