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6922 Tubes (Read 107 times)
Alan Arkin
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6922 Tubes
Yesterday at 15:20:19
 
Happy Monday!

In the never ending stream of upgrades, I am now thinking about rolling the input tubes in my Rachael.  I started with some military spec 6N1P-EVs and then moved on to some 6922s initially to extract some more gain out of the amp.  

I am now thinking about upgrading the 6922s to some Amperex 6922/7308s -- probably Bugle Boys or Orange Globes -- or maybe some Mullard E88CCs.  I don't really want to add any brightness to the system, I probably add a little bit more warmth as I think that the switch of my step up to the Cinemag 1254s added detail but maybe less warmth.

Thanks!

Alan
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SE34i.5 (2nd Anniv. Mods); Aric Custom S6N7 Line Stage; Rega Planar 6 (Apheta 3 Cart. and Groovetracer Subplatter and Counterweight); Darlington Labs MP-8B; Ned Clayton Cinemag 1254 SUT; Omega SAHO XRS; 2 Rel T/5x; Gaia III; 3" Maple Isolation Platform
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CAJames
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Re: 6922 Tubes
Reply #1 - Yesterday at 15:50:52
 
If you're looking for "warm" in my opinion you should look a Mullard. The conventional wisdom is UK tubes lean somewhat warmer than others. I don't have a Racheal but in my UFO25s I like the PCC88s better than 6922/ECC88s. And the Mullard PCC88s have a bit of warmth without sacrificing detail and speed. The Amperex 7308s are fabulous, but in my experience more neutral and transparent rather than warm.

Of course there is synergy between the input tubes, power tubes and rectifier. So a lot of times changing more than just one position will affect the sound in a way that is greater than the sum of the parts.


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[Volumio | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Mapletree Phono 3E
STR-1002 -> Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
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JHC
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Re: 6922 Tubes
Reply #2 - Yesterday at 16:59:52
 
I have some medical grade Amperex 6922 tubes that I procured from Brent Jessee and I really like them, although I would not say they are super warm. I also picked up some Voskhod Rocket Silver Sheild 6N23Ps on ebay for a fraction of the cost. To my ears, they are very, very close. The Rockets are not quiet as smooth, but if you can find some, they are worth checking out, especially for the price. To my ears and in my system, at least.
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LNBH > Pine Tree Audio Conditioner > Sumiko Starling > VPI Signature Classic > Aric Audio Super MC/MM | Cambridge MX10 > Pine Tree Audio 67+ > SE84UFO + DGR Jr. > Omega Super 8 HO XRS
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will
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Re: 6922 Tubes
Reply #3 - Yesterday at 20:54:28
 
Based on your wanting more warmth/less brightness it is hard to say if PCC88s will feel that way in your system. Like James I too have liked and used them a lot, in my case in my Toriis, and CSP3. And I agree, I really like the subtle warmth yet nice space and refined fine detail from the few Mullard PCC88s I have.

What might or might not be good about PCC88s based on your idea, though all different, the type tends toward a fast, clean, dynamic sound with a little less weighting toward low bass than many E88CCs... So even with some warmth, hard to guess, but they could feel right, or, with less bass in the balances and their generally open/fast feel, they could be a little light on notable darkness and slowness often associated with "warmth." Add to that pretty clear spaciousness and detail, though smooth usually, depending on all else, they could possibly feel a little bright.

So difficult to translate subtleties that could matter, both from various interpretations of these general audio terms like warm and bright, and between different system/rooms. But here, and to me, many PCC88s I have tried I would call open and revealing tending tubes that are relatively close to neutral overall....some leaning a little softer/slower/darker and some notably lucid and clear. But it seems to me the way many folks seem to describe "warmth" may be a little less subtle than James or I might (maybe), and guess many might not call most PCC88s particularly "warm" in comparison to other nice input tubes.

But this is why I have used them a lot, I do not need pronounced bass or strong warmth in my system, and love immediacy, smooth but complex detail, relatively open space and good dynamics.

In my experience, for a pretty notably warm tube (tending to have noticeable leanings toward darkish/fullish/slowish mids-down in particular, and enough to soften the whole, but not so slow/dark as to soften decent dynamics and well resolved complex detail much) you might look at Philips E88CC or E188CC, importantly the ones with what I came to think of as parasol getters, but lot of folks seem to call disc getters. There are variations on how these getters are set up, some with shorter riser wires, and some longer, and they all sound a little different here, but quite similar.  

I have used two basic versions, Mullard made (as described), and perhaps a little less dark/full (at least those I have), labelled Philips E88CC SQs, also with disc getters.... I do not use these in the input position in my Toriis, pretty great sounding but a little too soft/warm/slow for me in this system/room. But I have used them a lot in the power position of the CSP3 with a nice open PCC88 or ECC88 type in the input positions, along with gain tuning, speeding the Mullards up a bit. There used to be Mullard made batches around that were a little less costly, I think labeled E188CC and the box saying made in '80 I think... Mine are stashed away so I can't look at them, but if I recall correctly, they were made in the 60s, guessing the box saying made in 80 might have made them cheaper? Don't know if these are around anymore, but maybe worth some searching. On a quick Ebay search I found these to illustrate the getters and generally what these tubes look like. https://www.ebay.com/itm/265877759507?mkcid=2&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-175623-139228-7&...

What came to mind for me first were 6N5Ps, a low cost experiment if appealing. 6N1Ps in my Toriis, for whatever reasons, do not have enough gain, even though my particular amps came with them. I have used them for times though, and if I am remembering correctly, if you like the sound of nicely resolving 6N1Ps in general, you might get similar sound qualities that are amped up with 6N5Ps... I only have one pair so can't speak to the type, but this pair, with the other tubes I have in, has pretty nice, fullish but relatively tight bass riding up with some warmth leaking into the mid's pretty vivid detail complexity. In my amp, which is quite resolving, though vivid mids, there is warmth, and they have enough detail complexity and smoothness not to be hard. If they did not work there, guessing it could be from being too vivid in the mids. Overall, I guess my pair seems sort of in between nice ECC88s, and nice E88CCs. Can't say these are the same, but the ones I have look a lot like these, though 77 the last number on mine. https://www.ebay.com/itm/155300130476?_skw=6n5P+tube+pair&itmmeta=01KKVW6E59ZDK1...

Hopefully some more folks who have used 6N5Ps more than I might comment.

I guess any tube is a risk to recommend, each of us having such different rooms and systems, and ways of describing tubes, but some thoughts. And for me, having bought a lot of tubes over many years, having different types and variations within types is pretty nice, some working really well with certain tubes sets, and some working really well with others. So I became glad to have even subtle variations to tune with, and was willing to try a bunch of what seemed to be nice tubes when I found them at good prices. But I did buy most of them well before so many got so expensive as now!
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All Modified: PSA-P5>DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender, Verifi...>RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/MP-DX DAC/ZR2/Zstage/CSP3>Torii IV>Omega SAHOM/AudioSmile Tweeters, SVS Micro3000>mostly DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker>Stack and aluminum w ball bearing feet...
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CAJames
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Posts: 3143
Re: 6922 Tubes
Reply #4 - Yesterday at 22:52:11
 
A couple comments on Will's observations.

Re: 6N5Ps. Yes! I find their quality all over the map, like most Soviet tubes. But good sounding ones, which are more likely to be early 70s or 60s, are very good indeed. They are on the warm side, with a nice sound stage but I find find them a little diffuse, or veiled. I haven't priced them lately, but I'm sure they remain a bargain compared to "heritage" 6922/7308/E88CC/E188CC etc. Definitely worth trying if you want to roll input tubes.

Re: 6922 vs PCC88. Just to be clear the difference between a 6922/E88CC and a PCC88 is the filament voltage. Other than that, they are electrically (almost) exactly the same tube. My experience is the difference is more between manufactures, not so much the filament voltage. And what I've found is UK made tubes tend to be warmer with more emphasis on the low frequencies. German made tubes are very fast and transparent, with a sparkling high end to the point where some people (not me) consider them bright. Holland made tubes are kinda in the middle: more linear than UK, a little warmer than German. My experience with USA tubes is pretty limited, but I've found them in the middle, similar to the Holland made tubes.

JMO/FWIW/YMMV and all that. There are a gazillion threads on this site about tubes, and looking through them is time well spent.
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[Volumio | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Mapletree Phono 3E
STR-1002 -> Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Audeze LCD-XC
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Alan Arkin
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Posts: 64
Re: 6922 Tubes
Reply #5 - Yesterday at 23:40:53
 
Thanks for all the insights.

I had the Voskhod Rocket Silver Sheild 6N23P in my system for awhile -- they made have been the first tubes I rolled.  I liked them, though can't remember them being particularly memorable, which might be a good thing.  I have had 6922s in much longer.

I don't think that my system is overly bright, though my most recent upgrades were a new cartridge and replacing my Darlington Labs SU-7 with the Cinemag 1254.  I feel like the Cinemag increased the resolution, perhaps at the expense of a little warmth.  I like the sound -- it took a minute for my ears to adjust to the passive step up.  So if I can reinfect a little more warmth into the system with new input tubes, I am all for it.
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SE34i.5 (2nd Anniv. Mods); Aric Custom S6N7 Line Stage; Rega Planar 6 (Apheta 3 Cart. and Groovetracer Subplatter and Counterweight); Darlington Labs MP-8B; Ned Clayton Cinemag 1254 SUT; Omega SAHO XRS; 2 Rel T/5x; Gaia III; 3" Maple Isolation Platform
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will
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Posts: 3148
Re: 6922 Tubes
Reply #6 - Yesterday at 23:47:13
 
James. I mainly go on the sound of tubes, and having tried lots of different E88CCs, and lots of different PCC88s, I feel like I can hear pretty clearly type tendencies being different, regardless of tech data or the times when individual tubes of different types can overlap in sonic tendencies. I do agree that the maker and vintages can make pretty big differences as well. But PCC88s (and all the other types I use as inputs in my Toriis and input and output in my CSP3), to me, have a relatively distinct type flavors.

I have also found similar general tendencies as you with the three makers you mention.

I Forgot to add that the Amperex Holland Orange globes and and Bugle Boys I have had are not 6922/E88CCs, but 6DJ8/ECC88s. A lot of sellers seem to use all those type titles in the descriptions, but technically I guess they are meaning these types are generally interchangeable??? Nice tubes, in fact for me ECC88s that have good balances are my preference most of the time over the more solid and powerful feeling signal from E88CCs, 7803/E188CCs.

Here, ECC88s generally sound a little lower key and can tend to being more complex and open in the mids when compared to many E88CCs. Some of them can be pretty similar to some PCC88s, but I would say, in general, PCC88 are sort of between E88CCs and ECC88s, ECC88s generally tending a little more mild. Associated, they tend to have a little milder big bass emphasis. The nice ones to me are more clearly textured, Bugle Boys from the early 60s, those I have had a good example of nicely balanced tubes for my tastes and the type, at least those pairs having sweet open space, fine detail, and complex textures and decays (not the same, but not unlike some Mullard/IEC PCC88s I have).

Which reminds, me, I am referring here to tubes with O getters in the case of PCC88 and ECC88s, which to me create a more natural and complex sound by comparison to A frame getters. A-frames I have had tend toward a more rigid solid sound, something that can be nice, but personally I rarely prefer. This difference can further confuse the differences between types.

Luckily, it can be fun to navigate the labyrinth!
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All Modified: PSA-P5>DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender, Verifi...>RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/MP-DX DAC/ZR2/Zstage/CSP3>Torii IV>Omega SAHOM/AudioSmile Tweeters, SVS Micro3000>mostly DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker>Stack and aluminum w ball bearing feet...
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