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Power Conditioning (Read 125 times)
MM
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Power Conditioning
Yesterday at 16:39:02
 
I struggled to find the right place for this post so up front, forgive me. It could probably be in a better place.

A year and a half ago I was about to pull the trigger on a Puritan PSM156. I didn't have a hum issue at that time but a friend had one, I demo'd his, and liked what it did for my system.

At that same time I began discussing off-grid power sources with another forum member.  That member recommended using one of these battery backup systems for our audio power.  Charge it when not listening, and run your system off the battery back-up when listening.  Clean, pure AC sine wave power.

So I was on the fence...  try a battery back-up or PSM156.  I knew I was moving soon and decided to punt the decision until after the move.  During the move I took possession of my SEWE300b and have been somewhat resentful of the hum ever since. I tried taking it to a friend's power source - same hum.  Tried taking it to my employer's power source - same hum.  I tried a number of different power conditioners, power filters, etc.  Packed away I had several power things - audio specific power strips, isolation transformers; most recently the Snubstation Zero and Mainstream from Verifi.  Same hum issue.

In my move, I went from a home in the city to a remote parcel of woods on an island that has a significant threat of wildfire in the summers.  Power is semi-reliable and our utility does a good job of restoring it when goes out but still for piece of mind I finally purchased a battery back-up. The main purpose is having power during storms, fires, or what-have-you.  

I chose an Ecoflow Delta 3 on a black friday sale.  Right out of the box I charged it for the first time and then plugged in my system. The Snubstation is gone, the Mainstream is gone, and my SEWE300b is silent from the listening chair.  The background is blacker than I've ever heard, the bass is even tighter and punchier than I ever thought it could be, and there is a micro-detail that I don't really have the words to explain.

A couple of points to this post -> TL:DR
1) I'm really digging this battery back-up as a new addition to my home.  My system sounds better than ever, and I have an added sense of security for my home power (also able to recharge with solar).
2) SEWE300b owners: clean power is the solution to the hum.
3) I owe Steve an apology because I have been belly-aching about the Sarah hum for almost a year now and he has said all along that it was the power source. I tried a number of things but not the right things apparently.  Also, all those Sarah owners that didn't have a hum issue - now I believe you.
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Cambridge CXN100, DSR3 Interconnects, SEWE 300b, ZSTYX SC, Lii F15 & W15 in open baffle.
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CAJames
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Re: Power Conditioning
Reply #1 - Yesterday at 17:46:33
 
Quote:
Posted by: MM      Posted on: Today at 08:39:02

...I chose an Ecoflow Delta 3 on a black friday sale.  Right out of the box I charged it for the first time and then plugged in my system. The Snubstation is gone, the Mainstream is gone, and my SEWE300b is silent from the listening chair.  The background is blacker than I've ever heard, the bass is even tighter and punchier than I ever thought it could be, and there is a micro-detail that I don't really have the words to explain...


Firstly, that is great news that you fixed the hum issue. Hum is a trigger for me, so I totally understand the celebration.

Now, to off grid power sources. My experience is mostly using uninterruptable power supplies (UPS) i.e. battery backups for computers and networking. And I know the power supplied by them is extremely dirty. The issue is the inverter (the gizmo that changes DC battery power to AC, the inverse of a rectifier) is essentially a switch that produces an on/off square wave rather than a smooth sine wave. The output can be smoothed to be more sine-like using capacitors but that has other undesirable side effects. So my takeaway has always been: avoid inverted battery power for my stereo.

I also live in an area where wildfires can cause (extended) power outages, and have been considering some kind of solar/battery system for a while, mostly to keep the fridge running. But I'm always looking for an upgrade to my system and power is an obvious place to look. I've been looking for an explanation of how a "pure sine wave" inverter is different from a regular one, and pretty much the only thing I can find is "pure sine wave" is just a better filter on the inverter. Which doesn't seem that great, but your story is intriguing. I'm curious if anyone else has a story?
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[Volumio | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Mapletree Phono 3E
STR-1002 -> Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
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Lon
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Re: Power Conditioning
Reply #2 - Yesterday at 17:56:28
 
Glad you found a solution and listen now without the worry about hum.
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will
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Re: Power Conditioning
Reply #3 - Yesterday at 20:53:44
 
I lived off grid for ±28 years in the NC mountains. After no electricity for several years, we made a little hydro system with a large battery bank and inverter, that system slowly shifting as tech and climate changes evolved, both changing notably over that time. The annual rainfall remained about the same, ±60 inches a year, but as things changed, it became less and less regular. For years, in the hotter times of summer, about once a week it would rain, seemingly in part from evaporative localized cloud development. But gradually, weather patterns shifted, and there were longer and longer dry spells between heavier downpours. The ground dryer, and rains bigger, unable to take it in, less and less was retained, and more and more ran off down stream. Though still 60 inches of rain per year, my lowest gallon/minute average in high summer went from 90 gpm in ’83, to about 20 gpm over the about 24 years we used that system.

Luckily tech changed also, though in this case for the better. Relative to inverters, I went from a pretty good (for the time) “modified sine wave” that mimicked a sine wave by overlaying a lot of squares to look sort of like a sine wave, but still with a lot of noisy corners on those square’s edges. I used an isolation transformer with it for the stereo, and this helped, but the inverter, in a small building well away from the house, buzzed a lot, and the iso transformer buzzed a lot too, presumably from the noisy power it received, so I had to make a little house for it outside also. Not surprisingly, my then NAD amp transformers buzzed notably too, and you could hear the buzz without music from the ADS L1090, 90 db speakers. Still, considering this was the best I could do, I got used to it, loving the music while watching for better tech.

Next was a Trace modified sine wave inverter that was supposed to be much closer to true sine, and it was notably less noisy than the earlier behemoth. But still buzzing transformers, in the inverter, iso transformer, and the amp.

Getting closer, and over noise, I found an Exceltech (sp) “true sine wave” inverter, designed for sensitive equipment, especially medical, and supposedly steady and quiet. And though getting this close to a true sine was really expensive then, they made smaller units, and I got one just for the audio circuit. The best yet by far, no more Iso Transformer, but still noisy transformers in particular.

In the later 90s, after a lot of back and neck damage from being rear-ended by a tractor trailer at high speed, and us nearly stopped, I needed a pugmill to wedge clay for me in our pottery, and an electric wheel I could stand up at. The pugmill needed a lot of power (for a small off-grid system anyway). So I got a “close to” state of the art, larger Trace “pure sine wave” inverter. Designed to be tied to the grid, its power was said to be as, or more, reliable and good quality than the grid, making interchangeability possible. The relatively low measuring noise was acceptable by the grid standards, but I don’t think the noise nice audio can pick up and convey was the criteria. It was less noisy than the previous setups, but I guessed part of that was that the whole system was making less noise, including reduced, but not gone and EMF and RFI from the Inverter. I still had amp transformer hum and minor noise from the speakers… more than I have now, but finally getting pretty good (though I bet it would drive me nuts with my 97-98 db speakers now).

With MMs experience, it looks like this tech has progressively continued to improve. But I also know there are a lot of inverters and small backup systems out there, and there will be those that are less noisy than others, so research makes sense to me. And as I pointed to, seems to me it is not necessarily just the inverter in a lot of cases, but how it, and the battery are fed. Also, from researching and seriously upgrading my RV solar system recently, I gather it is still true that “true” or “pure” sine wave inverters are “flexible” relative to noise… So though I don’t have good answers, I feel confident that for very low noise audio, checking pretty carefully into various inverter based backup setups is a good idea. Aside from audio folks that maybe MM can point us to??? off grid Hamm radio operators seem to be pretty good “noise sniffers.”

Yours is an exciting story for me MM! Glad you broke through!
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MM
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Re: Power Conditioning
Reply #4 - Yesterday at 22:17:27
 
I can't speak to the quality of the sine wave but I am guessing that technology has come a long way over time. I was off-grid, entirely on solar, from 2015-2020, using an Outback inverter. It was totally silent, but I didn't run a tube amp or high-efficiency speakers during those years.

Adamaley is the forum member that turned me on to this and I hope will chime in.  I'll let that story be told directly, but recall starting with a Bluetti back-up that was really good and then getting an Ecoflow that was even better.

Full disclosure, I'm still curious about the PSM156. I never had access to the PSM156 after moving or receiving the SEWE300b. There are surely multiple ways to get to clean power.  This is just the one that worked for me.  I only know what I know, my system, my room, my utility company's electricity, etc.
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Cambridge CXN100, DSR3 Interconnects, SEWE 300b, ZSTYX SC, Lii F15 & W15 in open baffle.
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Donnie
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Re: Power Conditioning
Reply #5 - Today at 03:05:27
 
Maybe everyone is looking at the AC noise problem incorrectly.

Perhaps taking DC from a battery and then converting it to AC to then send it to the amplifier to be converted back to DC is adding way too many steps to the process?

My feeble knowledge of electronics will probably be displayed here, but why couldn't a amplifier be designed to take and use the DC power directly from a battery?
Something like a Tesla Powerwall could be stepped down to the correct rail voltages and ta-da you should have a silent power source.

Am I wrong in my understanding of such things? It sure wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about things I didn't understand.

"Any technology that I don't understand must be magic"!
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CAJames
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Re: Power Conditioning
Reply #6 - Today at 03:31:57
 
Quote:
Posted by: Donnie      Posted on: Today at 19:05:27

...My feeble knowledge of electronics will probably be displayed here, but why couldn't a amplifier be designed to take and use the DC power directly from a battery?


The short answer is because transformers only work on AC. For a tube amp that needs hundreds of volts DC for the tube plates and 6ish volts for the heaters it is much much easier to use a transformer to step or down the voltage you need rather than trying to find a 300 volt battery. For a solid state amp I think it is probably doable, I've seen battery powered phono amps, and maybe should be your next DIY?

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[Volumio | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Mapletree Phono 3E
STR-1002 -> Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Audeze LCD-XC
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