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New to me UFO2 (Read 632 times)
Estes
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New to me UFO2
04/27/24 at 16:51:50
 
Hello all!
Quick background! I have been interested I Decware for quite a while. My brother in law lived in Peoria for years, so I have been aware of the name and business for a while by reputation. I reserved a couple of spots on the build list this year and figured I had plenty of time to wait until my time came. In the interim I was able to purchase a used UFO2 from a forum member here, and had Steve and his team recertify before sending my way.

I unboxed it and connected everything to my current set up and Klipsch Heresy IV's. Until this point I was pretty happy with my current setup. I have a restored Sansui 5000x that I have used for amplification and phono stage, Rega P3 TT, a Topping DAC for streaming, and I thought it sounded pretty good. This receiver is pretty coveted when it comes to vintage, so thought I was in a good spot. And then I started listening through the Zen... 🤯

I had no idea what I was missing. Truly... The clarity, the energy, the transparency, the separation is almost overwhelming. I know everyone mentions that you start to hear things you didn't know were there, but at one point playing the Gorillaz Demon Days on vinyl I swear I got up and went to my window because I thought a bass section was coming from outside. I did some A/V testing between the Zen and my Sansui and the vintage sounds punchy, but muddy and more of a wall of sound. Difficult to pick components out like I can with the Zen. What a revelation!

Makes me think about the current items I have reserved on the build list. Right now I have a UFO25 and a ZP3 with anniversary mods. I am keeping the ZP3 for sure as my listening is about 50/50 when it comes to vinyl vs streaming. I used the Sansui as my preamp and phono so that is a given. Any recommendations would be great! What should I do with that other spot?
Thanks all! This is a very helpful forum, and I appreciate any suggestions and feedback!
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CAJames
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #1 - 04/27/24 at 18:12:21
 
Quote:
Posted by: Estes      Posted on: Today at 08:51:50

...I had no idea what I was missing. Truly...


Welcome to the club!

I too was shocked, shocked! at how much better my UFO amps (configured as balanced monoblocs) were than my highly regraded Pass Labs SEM (single ended MOSFET) monos. So good that I got back on the waiting list for a pair of UFO25s that arrived 6 months ago, and I couldn't be happier.

Quote:
...Any recommendations would be great! What should I do with that other spot...


Well, since you asked I can assure you that the UFO25 is a very real upgrade over your UFO2 but...they are even more revealing of your front end. For me, I couldn't imagine a system without a tube preamp so in your position I'd swap the UFO25 for a CSP325. I think you will be similarly impressed by the improvement.

Another suggestion I would make, if you haven't already done so, is to organize a set of backup tubes and fuses, because you never know when a tube and/or fuse is going to go bad. You can't go wrong with tubes from Decware (but see below) or depending on your level of interest in tube rolling there are many many thread on this site about options for different tubes. The one exception I'd make re: tubes from Decware is the rectifier. Here is a post by Steve from a few years ago that IMO is still very true today, although the prices have gone up, (emphasis added by me):

Quote:
Re: Roll Rachael Roll
Reply #13 - 06/23/20 at 06:08:32
Some great feedback regarding quality tubes...  

The beauty of a tube amp is that you can change the tubes.  You can change the tubes when they grow tired and lazy sounding over time... or you can change the tubes when you grow bored or just want to take a different seat in the music hall so that you can hear the music from a different perspective. So this leads to tube rolling which leads to brands and types... and here is some of what I know that you should know:


Current production vs. New Old Stock. In my experience the only consistently solid tubes on the market today come from Russia. Brands like Mullard, Tungsol, Electro Harmonix, Sovtek, Svetlana. The rights to these brand names have been acquired over the years by New Sensor Corp in the USA, who is predominately a tube supplier for the music industry / guitar amps. They own or partially own factories in Russia.

Decware purchases it's Russian tubes direct from Russia in bulk with the exception of the larger output tubes (EL34/KT66/KT88) which are current production branded tubes imported into the USA. All of the the Russian tubes that we purchase direct from Russia are N.O.S. Russian Military Grade tubes. Many of them have Gold grids, thick glass, high G ratings for missile use, and longer life, in some cases 10,000 hours.  These are ultra-hi-end tubes in disguise and have always been.   To hear how good these tubes are you have to install an American New Old Stock rectifier tube.

My experience with Boutique Chinese brands is mixed. The sound is good, the reliability and or consistency is ridiculous. I have been purchasing samples of these fancy tubes as they come out over the past many years and I have an entire collection of crippled tubes. Even KT88's that cost $1600 a quad drifted out of usable tolerance within days and had to be replaced.

New Old Stock is the real deal. Those who like to push the envelope of what is possible with their amplifier will often go down this path with no regrets. For one thing, the tubes not only sound better, but often last longer, in some cases like with rectifier tubes up to 10 times longer.

Rectifiers are a subject all in their own. Russian rectifiers are acceptable, everything else is a no-go from a reliability standpoint with some rare exceptions that are very pricey. My advise to all Decware amplifier owners is to find yourself a New Old Stock 5U4 or a 5R4 that has never been used and comes in it's original un-molested box. Consider the current production rectifier tube we ship with the amp the best sounding and most attractive  option that will last long enough for you to find a real N.O.S. replacement.

Finding N.O.S. tubes is easy, even on eBay there are millions. Since you only need one or two you will have more to choose from than you know what to do with.  Finding quantity of these tubes is another story. If Decware could secure reliable inventory of 1000's of N.O.S. rectifiers, it is an investment we would gladly make but in 25 years is has yet to happen. Because we can't find N.O.S. tubes in large quantities, even batches of 100 would be gone in less than 30 days, we feel there is no point in even trying.  

For the customer it is easy, just find a N.O.S. 5U4 tube on eBay that is unused, and in it's original box for $40 and it could easily last for 10 years or more and sound better the entire time.

As an amplifier designer, it is possible to create circuits that baby the rectifier tube by limiting inrush current, using smaller capacitors, running higher voltages with a choke and so on.  Correctly done, this can make a Chinese rectifier tube last the full rated 500 hours or more.  The problem with this is that it changes the sound quality of the amplifier well outside what we find acceptable.  So, we have to make a choice, do we design tube amplifiers to baby the crappie rectifier tubes being made today, or do we design amplifiers to use REAL tubes.  Of course the answer has to be REAL tubes, because we make real amps.


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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Audeze LCD-XC
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Estes
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #2 - 04/27/24 at 19:20:21
 
Thanks for the response! I will do more research on tube rolling, but that sounds like good advice. This is my first tube amplifier so it will be a learning process, especially when trouble shooting something like a blown fuse. I'll do another forum search to identify some possibilities!

Appreciate the feedback on potential choices! I have 3 different scenarios on my head as possibilities. I have time as I am currently on page 12 with both entries so no rush 🙂

1. Keep the UFO2. Get the ZP3 with mods and get the CSP325.
2. Sell the UFO2 when my time comes, and move forward with the UFO25 and ZP3, and try to find a used preamp that would complement (CSP3 preferred)
3. Move forward with the UFO25, swap the ZP3 for the CSP325, and sell the UFO2  towards a better TT or improved phono other than Decware. (I purchased a Schitt Mani 2 while I wait)

Not sure what the best overall gain would be.
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HockessinKid
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #3 - 04/27/24 at 21:38:14
 
Estes,

Based on your posts it appears that you're struggling with sequencing your system build probably due to budget constraints. It's not an uncommon quandary.

Given that you have two sources, analog & digital streaming, I would encourage you to consider a Decware amp & preamp purchase which will provide you a solid foundation for system building over time. The 25th Anniversary UFO25 and it's partner CSP325 would be an exceptional combination paired with relatively high efficiency speakers. If you need to, sell the UFO2 to get the combo. Make sure to get some good interconnects and power cords, they matter.

With that foundation in place, you can make some decisions regarding possible upgrades to source equipment - as time and budget allows. While the ZP3 phono preamp is excellent, it will limit you to MM and high output MC phono cartridges. Should you decide to upgrade your turntable and/or use a low output moving coil cartridge you'll need to add a step-up transformer to boost your cartridge signal output.

Also take into consideration how you do the bulk of your listening. If you stream digital music most of the time, you might want to hold off on a phono preamp and/or turntable upgrade. Maybe look to upgrade to a better streamer/DAC especially if streaming HiRez music is how you plan to do most of your listening.

FWIW, up until 5-6 years ago 90% of my listening was vinyl on a nice Nottingham turntable w/ Dynavector 20XL cartridge. I did not want to invest in digital equipment due to how quickly things became outdated and the lesser sound quality. That changed when Steve Deckert reported on the Cambridge Audio CXNV2 streamer/DAC versatility and sound quality. Suffice it to say I took the digital plunge, had a tube modification done to my CXNV2 then started streaming music via Qobuz and Roon.

Now my digital equipment sound quality matches that of a really good turntable and phono preamp set up.  I listen to streamed music ~80% and vinyl ~20% of the time.

It takes a while to get there but it's important to enjoy the journey and use your ears to make decisions. That's why I always encourage folks to attend Decfest of at all possible and listen to equipment/speaker pairings if at all possible

Good luck with your journey and selections.

HK



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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Audio Technica AT-OC9XML cart + Modwright PH 9.0XT phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-25th Ann. preamp > ZMA-25th Ann. amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables
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CAJames
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #4 - 04/27/24 at 21:50:12
 
Quote:
Posted by: Estes      Posted on: Today at 11:20:21

1. Keep the UFO2. Get the ZP3 with mods and get the CSP325.
2. Sell the UFO2 when my time comes, and move forward with the UFO25 and ZP3, and try to find a used preamp that would complement (CSP3 preferred)
3. Move forward with the UFO25, swap the ZP3 for the CSP325, and sell the UFO2  towards a better TT or improved phono other than Decware. (I purchased a Schitt Mani 2 while I wait)


None of those are bad plans, but IMO if you can get a UFO25 for the long term you should do it. Both my preamp/headphone amp and phono stage are non-Decware and I'm very happy with them, but there is nothing for which I would trade my UFO25s.

Quote:
Posted by: HockessinKid      Posted on: Today at 13:38:14

FWIW, up until 5-6 years ago 90% of my listening was vinyl...

Now my digital equipment sound quality matches that of a really good turntable and phono preamp set up...


I had similar journey. I don't stream but I have thousands of CDs and growing collection of downloads. I kept hoping to find a digital setup that wasn't a compromise compared to my (pretty nice) vinyl setup and I finally found that a couple years ago. I went from listening to 60/40 digital/vinyl to 99/1. Of course this is FWIW/JMO/YMMV and all that.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Audeze LCD-XC
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Estes
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #5 - 04/28/24 at 00:27:52
 
That's interesting about the ZP3, and you make a good point. Vinyl will stay in my system for the foreseeable future. Reminds me of my dad listening to records (on this same Sansui) when he brought it home from the war. I like the experience of sitting down with an album and listening as an engaging experience. I haven't heard an MC in my system yet, but imagine I will get the upgrade itch at some point.

Hmmmm.. Sounds like UFO25 and CSP325 and eventually selling of this UFO might be the way to go. And maybe use the sale to upgrade the DAC or TT depending on what is lacking at that point in time.
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will
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #6 - 04/28/24 at 00:39:05
 
Remember also that those 25s are in their designs anniversary modded plus other design/sound/appearance refinements...Though as you have found with the UFO2, all Steve's stuff is nice, but the pair of 25s are a Decware signature pair... pretty much the state of Steve's art at that point in time... Sounds like a nice setup to me!
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will
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #7 - 04/28/24 at 01:04:35
 
Also... The more I work on my system, the more I realize the old adage about the front end being most important reproves itself time and time again. I got lucky in part with some really nice front end cables and components, starting with a super resolving/ musical computer and OS that was refined and tuned over many years by a guy with great discernment... followed by a seriously modified USB Bridge and DAC, both of which starting out above average by a good bit, but slipping into a seriously high level modified, and together. They could not be as good as they are if the modified computer did not feed them such a beautifully smooth and resolving data stream.

So for me, experience has shown the front end is most important, each improvement I make with the room, power, pre stages, amps, cables, speakers... as the system/room gets better, so too does the front end that I have not changed in years. So far is holding its own in revealing more and more based on some pretty serious tuning in front of it with power, and beyond it. With each notable improvement in system/room development I used to think the ways it just kept getting better and better at sounding real was more the upgrades and refinements I was making. But if it is not there in the front end, the potential of everything else is limited, and so far I have not reached any limitations...
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Estes
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #8 - 04/28/24 at 12:14:38
 
All good points, and makes sense about having Steve's "signature pair" as you say. Blowing my mind a bit that it can get even better than this 😂
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Dominick
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #9 - 04/28/24 at 12:23:42
 
In regards to the front end….I have experienced something very similar.  I started my journey with a Audioquest Dragonfly Red combined with a Google Chromecast Audio Puck. The AQ was a good starting point….the puck was there for a matter of convenience so as not to be tethered like the Dragonfly.  I ran that for like 2 years.  I then stepped up to the Schiit Bifrost2  DAC that yielded a big difference.  

Since then….my system has expanded exponentially with the addition of a modded Rega P2, ZRock2, an upgrade from a ZSTAGE to a CSP2+, and my Torii MKIV saw the addition of a pair of fully upgraded white SE84C+ Zen amps.  At this point now…my front end is the weakest link…even after I added a  ZBIT to squeeze out more gain from my DAC.  

I dove deep into the tech of a DAC…and I wanted an R2R ladder DAC.  The Bifrost2 fit the bill at that time, but now I am at a crossroads. I know my DAC is a weak link…but I’ve been wanting to upgrade my vinyl setup for quite some time now.  Is my DAC good enough to be happy with….absolutely; but I  see it’s pitfalls when I compare a vinyl album to its digital counterpart.  

If you are leaning towards listening to more vinyl than digital….then pursue that avenue.  I was hellbent on a ZP3, but HK turned me on to the Modright Preamp 9.0XT.  I think it’s the better choice for an endgame setup in terms of a preamp… which will probably be my next purchase.   Just me 2 cents.  

Dom

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Rasp. Pi 4 [Roon], Schiit Bifrost True Multibit DAC, ZBIT, ZROCK2, My Audio Cables Ultra Silver+, ZSB, CSP2+ 25th, DAG Cables, DHC1, Torii MKIV 25th /2 White Zen SE84C+ 25th mono’s, Rega P2 Turntable,Rega Fono MK5, Velodyne Dual Firing Sub, ERR’s [Bubbinga Wood]
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CAJames
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #10 - 04/28/24 at 14:18:35
 
Quote:
Posted by: will      Posted on: Yesterday at 17:04:35

...So for me, experience has shown the front end is most important...


I wouldn't say it exactly that way, but a Decware system will absolutely illuminate any weakness in your front end. I learned that the hard way when my UFOs showed the limitations of what I thought was a pretty decent SACD player I was using for both discs and files. Conversely a Decware system will reward any and all the effort you put into optimizing the rest of your playback chain.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Audeze LCD-XC
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Estes
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #11 - 04/28/24 at 20:36:13
 
I spoke with Steve a while back, and he more or less said the exact same thing. The quality of the source coming in will yield the better results with a transparent and revealing system. If your front end is flawed, you may not hear the differences that. Anniversary mods will make, or perhaps the difference between the UFO2 vs the UFO25. I am paraphrasing of course, but it made a lot of sense to me then, and good to hear that same message spoken here by those with direct experience. Thank you
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will
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #12 - 04/28/24 at 23:51:43
 
So many variables in a complex system and room, even with really real sounding gear and setup, it gets challenging to make general observations. But I have been into music a long time, and by being into adjusting instrument sound and audio sound so long, I have had pretty nice sounding stuff, even if not all that costly at that time. And I don't know if I have had a front end so bad I wouldn't hear notable differences in things you mention.

I had to stop playing going on 30 years ago due to some severe back and neck damage in a car wreck... too much pain when playing. But before that, I always loved the sound of my instruments as much as the music they made, and the rooms we played in effected that as much as with audio... a good sounding instrument and room making it easier to play better... the sound engaging and inspirational. I have always found audio the same...trying to choose carefully and squeezing the most out of a given setup, and I guess making changes pretty noticeable. From the pretty profound change you found with your UFO2, I suspect you will hear quite a lot in your setup too.

But even with decent gear, with lots of minor weak links, no doubt, they can add up and limit the potential of the components, and the whole. And perhaps especially with not-so-good speaker placement and room issues, I can sort of imagine not hearing these specific differences you mention enough to matter...  

But with a relatively refined setup, especially if the nuanced speed and resolution aspects of revelation are important to your musical experience, then the choices get more limited within reason cost-wise. And lots of front ends (and everything else) just can't do all the fine stuff in most decent recordings as completely as I need for a more ultimate musical experience. Finally though, with all nice gear and cables, and a room and setup that shows it all without notable compromises in refined resolution and balances, then a really refined and revealing front end is pretty huge.

That said, there is a lot of nice stuff out there that appears to show it all pretty well, but does not quite, and I suspect lots of folks with nice setups might be surprised what they are missing in the front end. I think this is in part remnant from the legacy of makers trying to "solve" digital with artful tone tuning and masking that to me never completely works... I think this legacy and associated design habits tend to result in sonic habits that can seem good, but are limiting, in turn limiting more "state of the art" innovation toward a more complete and engaging experience. I figure, why not just focus on making digital sound like real music rather that using old school ideologies to try to make it appear "analog." And we seem to be getting there finally, and this applies not just to front ends. As front ends get more complete in musical resolution, all the rest has to be up to that, and visa versa to get the most from it.

Once it is all more complete and balanced, then even with sort of minor (rather than major) weak links most of us still have, differences between A-mods and not can really be heard. I have been working on this stuff a long time, but here different good quality individual resistors and wires of the same values are generally pretty noticeable. And the difference between stock and anniversary-like mods are enough that I can't use stock stuff I have had anymore in this setting. I don't have any with A-mods Steve did, but have done similar and gone further. And when it is all like that, the stock stuff I once loved is no longer up to the rest, needing upgrading to match without sacrifice to the whole. I have not heard the more recent Decware amps though where Steve is spending more and more attention on nice parts and wires as aspects of refining his already great designs. But I guess part of the point is, that if possible, I find it is better to go for the better options from the start, as they will hold up better to system/room improvements over time.

Also this is me in my room. And a lot depends how hard we listen and what matters in system sound. But here, having been going for sort of ultimate resolution, tonal, and speed balances for a long time, no mod, or new cable, or foot, or whatever stays if it can't improve things without sacrifice... And this gets notably progressive, the whole revealing more and more, while having more and more musical potential. But also, the better it all works individually and together, the easier it is to use comparably really good stuff in the chain without notable compromise... each thing being more transparent, it is easier to add things that can compliment the flexibility and beauty of the system/room, allowing it to play more music with less notable negative effects on revelation.

From this path, once all the resolution and balances get pretty close and pretty right, it is also easier to hear if they sway off a little... which points to another need for me... how different recordings sound in the system/room. My ultimate system/room "mastering" tool is variable recordings. If most sound really good and alive without masks and system compensations, then the system tuning is to sort of master of all those master recordings, and can make them all sound better, not just "audiophile" recordings. I am not sure if I even have those here... I have some recordings that sound more exceptional for sure, but have never bought "audiophile" recordings for that reason. And I don't stream yet, so don't have easy access to the latest and greatest of these, and don't even know what they are. I really like good recordings, but the main emphasis is the musical experience for me, and a lot of what I listen to is well recorded, but not brilliant. So gradually it has all continued to get more and more real, and with built in tuning tools for gain riding helping me fine tune individual recordings to sound more complete and engaging, most all recordings I listen to feel more and more real and engaging! To this end, for me, everything, literally everything, matters. My take anyway...
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Estes
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #13 - 05/01/24 at 23:37:16
 
I just put in a full set of Cryotone tubes. The full Decware provided set is put aside (for now) as reserve while I warm these tubes up and listen. I appreciate the recommendation in having a back up. This is my first attempt at tube rolling 😬
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #14 - 05/02/24 at 05:11:43
 
Hey Estes, The new CryoTone tubes will knock your socks off! Enjoy.  When you come back up to catch your breath,  what tubes did you get. I  did a quick read above to see if you mentioned,  but didn't see which ones you chose.
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SE84UFO25 | Ic0n4 Passive Preamp | ZBIT | Cambr. CXNv2 | Denafrips Pontus II | Denafrips Gaia | Decware I/Cs | Decware Pwr Cbls | ZWIRE Speaker Cbls | Omega SAHOM & KEF KC62 | Furman Cond l GIK Room Trmt
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Estes
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #15 - 05/05/24 at 14:26:23
 
Here are the Cryotone tubes I am playing around with:

1 x 5U4GB-WC Rectifier
1 x ECC88-WC input tube
2 x 6P15P-WC power tubes

It's pretty remarkable how differences are more apparent when you have a revealing system like this. I don't deal in measurements or anything like that, but all I can say is that it sounds more present. I can place instruments in the soundstage more clearly, and the resolution is just, well, more clearly defined. Make Sense? I wasn't sure what to expect with my first try at tube rolling, and maybe some of that is just me wanting to believe there is a difference, but that is what I hear. More presence

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will
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #16 - 05/05/24 at 14:58:19
 
Sounds like a a good move in your setup Estes, and objectives around quality cryoing for audio seem to be present in what you hear... The base tubes are clearly bringing their sound to the mix, but cryoing tends to clarify solidity, dynamics, detail... and cleaner space helping show these qualities. I have hundreds of pretty nice tubes, bought over a lot of years, and very few (if any) sound alike. I think you can trust your perceptions and impressions!
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CAJames
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #17 - 05/05/24 at 16:33:00
 
Quote:
Posted by: will      Posted on: Today at 06:58:19

...I have hundreds of pretty nice tubes, bought over a lot of years, and very few (if any) sound alike. I think you can trust your perceptions and impressions!


Cosign.

Music should be fun and rewarding, not a test, so trust your ears and listen to what sounds goods to you. Tube rolling is a great way to optimize your system, but it can also become a bit of an addiction. You've been warned .
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Audeze LCD-XC
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Estes
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Re: New to me UFO2
Reply #18 - 05/05/24 at 16:44:41
 
Haha. Thanks for the heads up. I am really tempted by one of the Sofia tubes just to see a different color glow in the mix 😂
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