Hey! Is there any consensus on whether it's better to run the power amps at max volume and then adjust the preamp gain or to run the power amp lower and increase the preamp gain to get the same volume? I'm using a SE84UFO2.1 as the power amp and a Denon X-4000 that I use for Audyssey's EQ and then run the pre-outs to the Decware.

Thanks, everyone! Loving my first Decware amp! Had it for a little over a year and my listening has been enhanced by this amp more than any other piece of gear I've purchased.

Also, if you search "gain riding" or gain tuning on this forum, it may be worth a look. Using two or more gains together for sound quality rather than strictly for volume can be a great tool for tailoring the sound to your preferences in your room. And also, to tune different recordings to taste, giving leaner recordings more density and weight, or making heavier/thicker ones leaner.

The volume you hear the same, adjusting the pre gain up, and the amp a little lower to keep the same volume, it will power up the signal coming into the amp, making it more dynamic and big, lucid.... Or the opposite, less pre voltage and more amp voltage, by reducing the signal power coming into the amp some, it will usually open the sound up, making it less dense and full, and more clear and open.

So like Sean said, whatever sounds best. I would just add to that gain riding as a potential additional alternative. Could be worth a search and reading, and/or playing with it to see if it appeals.

Glad to help Tony. Nice you discovered gain riding from playing and listening! With your setup, looks like you have nice tools to tune gain. I have only one amp that does not have a volume, a 300B, and do fine with it using the CSP3 and/or ZRock2 and ZBIT in front of it. But I prefer overall being able to tune pre stages optimized together for sound qualities, and using the more neutral amp for volume. And I am always doing little gain adjustments for different recordings, sort of second nature at this point.

Thanks, everyone! I'll keep playing around with it and do some research on here as well!

The default power amp volume control setting should be full, unlike the preamp volume which should basically never be on full.  A power amp that doesn't have a volume control is the same as a power amp with volume set to full.

Adjust to what sounds best, but if you can't tell the difference, set the power amp to full.

Dan

I have played with amps with no volume control, amps with well implemented volume controls wide open, using a ZStage or CSP3 for volume... And using those same amps for system volume adjustments, but also one to three extra refined Decware pre stages in front, those used mainly for sound tuning rather than volume.

Finally, at this level of sonic potential, with all else really good, there are too many variables to say one is conceptually better than another and believe it, at least assuming the source to speakers chain does not impart notable weaknesses....

Then- to volume or not... how the volume is implemented, the wire qualities and/or lengths, the quality of the volume control, the solder, vibration, etc, we can have pretty transparent volume control, or a notably limiting volume control.

But also, what is the volume controlling, how fast, transparent and resolving is the rest of the amp, its connectors, transformers, caps, wires, resistors... tubes?

No volume no doubt removes something the signal goes through, fitting a "purist" ideology. And my 300B amp that has no volume sounds great with my tuned up ZBIT and CSP3 acting as gains and volume. But I am considering adding a nice attenuator to the amp.

In my listening, the CSP3, and the more purist ZBIT, at different gain settings do much more to the signal before reaching the amp than change the volume... and those qualities can be really helpful to sound qualities, perhaps especially for lower volume listening... Adjusting optimal density, dynamics and lucidity from each gain stage makes the signal itself more powerful before the amp, potentially giving a more satisfying high or low volume listening experience.

In my experience, gain changes on my amps are relatively neutral at different volumes. Whereas, the ways my Decware pre stages effect the signal with more or less gain changes the sound... basically making the signal more or less powerful while imparting the "flavors" of the pre stage design with more or less density, lucidity, weight, depth, clarity that come with different voltage/gain settings.... This is where gain tuning comes in, and to me, with transparent and musical components and cables, it is so far notably more useful for tuning sound qualities than removing a good volume setup from a resolving and transparent amp.

As one example, many folks seem to find ±80% to be the best sound from their ZBITs. The ZBIT being made of some pretty clean transformers, a gain control, and some connectors... this it a simple circuit, so relatively "purist." But especially with the added cables needed, it is quite a bit more to put the signal through than a volume control. So a "purist" ideology would eliminate the ZBIT. But most love what is does.

Having no gain itself, it adjusts the DAC gain down to optimal sound levels, and the signal qualities with the transformers, for most people make their music sound more complete and awake. Also it appears that this is often the case regardless of the DAC's balanced output voltage, somewhere around the 80% gain level on the ZBIT often a preferred baseline level, bringing a nice level of speed, punch, density, and lucidity there.

I run mine these days usually in the 65-80% area, and it is definitely useful to adjust its gain level for recordings... a little too high, brighter recordings can be too bright and piercing on top. Turn it down a little the brightness turns to resolving natural high information, with lots of complexity. Another recording, it might benefit from amping up the signal  energy a little to pull a little more clarity and lucidity.

The CSP3 is similar for me, imparting its own characters with gain adjustments, but also levels of gains changing the sound pretty notably. Gain riding with the amp for the same volume, but different pre and amp settings shows this pretty clearly here.

And the CSP3 having way more to put the signal through than the ZBIT... compared to a well implemented amp volume, a CSP3 is far from a "purist" "volume control." So depending on all else, if the Pre stage feels "off," compared to no pre stage, an amp volume, well done, is more transparent. Then it depends if we like the amp in a more transparent state better than the amp adjusted by a good sounding pre stage.

And lots of folks prefer the sound with the CSP3 because of what it does to the signal, a pretty intense range of voltage gain an important part of this sound influence. Finally, for me, I end up in the 65-80% range for it also, presently with the ZBIT in the 65-80 % range in front of it. The CSP3 in this range, with my current amp does a nice lucidity, weight and dynamics thing with its own flavor, the tubes a nice tuning tool also.

But again, depending on the recording mix, the ZBIT gain, and the volume I want... the CSP3 at a given "volume" can give too much of what it does, or not quite enough of what it does for optimal sound... just like the ZBIT. The ZRock2 in the unity area is similar... little adjustments changing the quality of the signal, making the sound of the recording better or worse in the system.

Yet the amps I have, changing the gain does not change the sound qualities in notable ways except in how the sound loads in the room. So they are for me, a more "pure" volume adjuster. Also, if there is any noise around, the amp on full here will show it more.

But regardless of noise, in my system/room and with my gear, I like the flexibility in sound from gain tuning more than setting the amp at full volume and using pre stages for volume....

That said, with the amp I use with no volume adjustment, I can get really good sound with just the tuned up ZBIT, and the tuned up ZStage or CSP3, just two stages allowing for some useful gain tuning. And especially using three stages between DAC and amp, ZBIT, ZRock, and CSP3, first finding optimal balances between the gain stages for an average optimal sound in the system/room, and then fine tuning those gains for volume and recording adjustment can be pretty beautiful, the tube flexibility these allow contributing.

Finally, for me, though all my stuff is more refined, fast, resolving and transparent than it was stock (my "stock" now years ago, and Steve continues to make things more and more fast and resolving), at this level, gains or not, is real. But it is not as cut and dried as it once was relative to transparency...And especially if the qualities we can get from different gain stages (and their tubes, cables, and feet...) influence the quality of our musical experience in relatively transparent ways, while making the sound more seductive and immersive...well....

But finally, it is all preferences, and all systems and rooms are different, and how much each of us want to explore is different.... so it seems there are no right or wrong ways to do this stuff.

Expanding a little on Lon's post, and relative to transparency and musicality of pre stages, I was considering selling my ZStage, serial #002, so an old timer.

But I found with some other things, that since I have become so interested in modifications, I ended up keeping them after doing some tuning. So I thought I should make a few changes in the Zstage, and see if I could get it to where I did not want to sell it. I started with some work similar to what became Steve's A-mods... carefully bypassing the power supply first by sound with a range of cap values.

Then I bypassed the already nice Jupiter HT coupling caps I had upgraded long ago, while bringing up the coupling cap value about 25%, something I rarely prefer, but ended up liking them stronger in this case, with the caps I used. Then I tuned the power supply a little more with different very small value bypass caps, making it a little faster, and more lucid.

Finally, I replaced the RCAs and IEC with some, to me, better sounding connectors. So a fair bit of adjustments in that simple unit, but I was blown away how good it got, more easily utilizing nice parts and design adjustments than things I have worked on in the past. Being super simple, no doubt played a part in this... but it was good enough that I was able to keep in the stock Mogami cables, something I had to upgrade in previous modifications in order to match my other upgraded components.

Not sure if or how Steve has changed the ZStage design over years, or exactly how he modifies them, but I wanted to point to the strong possibility that, all modded up, the ZStage is likely notably faster, more resolving, and musical than mine and Lon's earlier versions.

Yes, I get it, if a good pre does not fit a system by our tastes, it does not fit. But these days, with really good pre-stages, it is a lot of about context, tastes being part of that context.

My thoughts in this thread started with my preference for gain riding rather than using a pre as a volume. Then thoughts on how old ideas that pres are not "pure" enough, do not fit like they once did.... a well designed and well tuned pre these days having greater potential for transparency and speed, while offering its signal refinement/enhancement potential.

The point of my last post, Steve keeps making stuff better and better, and pre-stages are a big creative interest for him, where he regularly breaks new ground, stock and modded, while improving older designs.

But yes, if we are sensitive to subtle system changes, in context, a pre fitting a system depends on the pre quality, and the system/room qualities matching well... Add tastes... that presents a lot variables.

To me, A-mods make all the stock components better. And Steve's more recent amp designs, the SE84UFO25 and WE300B have A-mods in the designs, and the Torii V, you still have to order A-mods... But with these three amps, looking at the parts and designs, even if they had no A-mods, I highly suspect they would be on a different level than my last Decware amp, one of the first Torii IVs before A-mods existed. And a stock Torii IV is a great amp.

Lon's Zstage was well before my Torii IV, and I was suggesting that in Lon's very refined systems, that a new Zstage with A-mods would likely feel musically more complete.

Pointing to matching pre stages into a system, and as everything continues to evolve, old ideologies, like pre additions are not "purist," are real, but less and less so with the right gear and setup.  

Assuming the speed, resolution, etc of the pre matches well in a really nice system, the whole system and room nicely resolving, then I think the consideration is more about tastes. Then, if we are more concerned about losing a little transparency than attracted to the potential benefits a given pre-stage can bring for signal refinement.... a pre is obviously not a good choice.

Context and tastes again big players. A lot of people, without A-mods, love the lift Decware brings to whatever they are using, definitely the case for me when I first got into Decware, and for many years after.

Before modifications, adding different Decware components matched one another pretty well, for me, the benefits notably outweighing compromise with careful cabling and tube choices. Now my stuff is quite a bit beyond A-mods, so now adding something with A-mods may not be good enough without being tuned some to match the rest.

So roughly speaking, if everything is stock, with Steve's designs, adding a stock pre-stage for its sound qualities (using really good cables and tubes) will likely match and improve the system for most people... the cool effects the new pre-stage offers worth a little less pure transparency....

Add a pre with A-mods to a stock system, and it will likely bring the system up to a new level, as long as the cool stuff from the pre design fits our tastes.

A-mod the whole system, while introducing newer designs that now integrate A-mods and more, that is a different level that would require similar design refinement for additions to match, at least for some of us more sensitive types.

I get more transparency with less pre stages here, but when adding pres that match well in speed, resolution, transparency, and musicality, and using super good cables and tubes and all, the loss of transparency is not nearly as noticeable as the benefits of being able to sculpt the signal to tastes with Steve's very useful pre designs.... And especially lately, my amps really do play well across recordings on their own, and with more transparency. But so far, I still like it better with equally well tuned pres.... my system/room and tastes...

All that said, your referencing the ZRock question in your system. Most people seem to love the ZRock2, stock, and especially with mods. But a few of us who have especially fast and resolving systems, where the bass increase is not what the ZRock2 choice was about, more using the Zrock2 as a signal adjuster close to unity gain, have found it a little too slow and noisy (and a little low in resolution in my personal case). But again, I don't know if Steve has mitigated these issues with the current A-modded ZRock2s, or how many systems this applies to, most reports glowing from most users. But my guess is that the ZRock3, with mods, will go a long way toward solving issues some of us had. So being sensitive to this sort of thing, if you stay "on that fence," might be worth waiting to see how the ZRock3 works out.

I think it is awesome Steve integrated parts of what he learned with the ZRock built right into his 300B, and can totally imagine how good it is.

But Lon, just for clarification relative to how this thread has developed, the SEWE300B caused you to give up your "official" pre in your system, but I think you are still using Decware pre stages for signal enhancement and gain tuning... Do I have that right???

Depending on how you define a "pre stage," yes I'm using a ZBIT and a ZROCK2. Only the latter I think might be called a pre-stage. My DAC also has preamp stage (digital, not diminishing bits). These contribute to the gain riding. To be honest, if I didn't have such a tricky room especially for bass and if my taste were not for a darker tonal balance I think I would need neither ZBIT nor ZROCK2 and playing gain between source and SEWE300B would be sufficient and satisfactory.

Well, before I wrote my initial review of the SEWE300B in the Review forum I did listen to the DAC directly into the amp, both with fixed full output and with varying output from the DAC, and I have to say. . . if I had a better room and if I didn't always seem to desire more bass (I do have a contrabass violin, an electric version of one, and six bass guitars of differing types--I like and know bass) I could easily enjoy that set up. So. . . with the preamp stage Steve has provided one is well-served with the SEWE300B in general--perhaps not if you are a continual sonic explorer as you and I and many others here are.

That Steve added this stage is a real benefit.

I love preamps. . . but if push comes to shove this is the one Decware amp I could manage with no preamp or preamp stages (I wouldn't exactly include the ZBIT, but in this example sure)--especially if I could choose the best room in a house.