Hi All !

I have been a member and "on the list" for a nearly 2 years now . . . after having visited Steve's showroom in June 2021 and getting on the list for a Torri Jr. a week after my visit.   Since that time I also visited Randy at Caintuck and purchased a pair of Fast 8 Betsy's (but asked for him to make them with the thicker baffle, resulting in his "Magnum" line).   Also purchased a pair of Lii F15's for a future OB build.  I have lots of ideas and want to experiment !

Further, my long term goal is to build a set of open baffles utilizing LF drivers (< 1Khz) and either the Fast 8's or a compression/horn set up for > 1Khz.  Along the lines of Pure Audio Project Trio's . . . only better ?

With this in mind, I spoke with Steve, and changed my order from the Torri Jr to 2 amps -  a Rachel and a UFO2.1 - to provide flexibility to Bi-amp those future speakers . . . a little more power for the LF drivers, and the UFO2.1 for the higher efficiency HF drivers.  And seeing that any speakers I use or develop would likely be 96 dB +, it also made sense to utilize SET amp(s).   In theory, it seems like Bi amping this type of speaker set up would provide a ton of flexibility - to be able to use the 2 amps to fine tune the signal volume going to LF and HF respectively.  Even being able to adjust that balance for different music types.

My sources are a Cambridge CXN-V2 (streamer with reasonably capable DAC) and a phono set up.  I have an early 80's Dual and a newer Stanton T.55 - suspecting neither of those are up to the task - so phono upgrade will give me something to work on after the speakers!  But at least a start to reacclimate myself to albums purchased between 1978 and 1985. OK, showing my age - ha ha.  Thought I'd throw all of this out there for context.

As I understand, both of those amps can be used without preamps.  That said I started looking for a source selection box so I wouldn't have to plug and unplug RCA's to switch back and forth.   In looking for this type of product (like a ZSB) it brought me to thinking about a preamp instead . . . which would likely allow for multiple inputs and outputs and offer additional benefits like volume matching between sources, etc.   So my questions are:

1) Even though the Rachel and UF02.1 amps can be used without a preamp ahead of them, what exactly are the pros and cons (if any) to utilizing a preamp ?   And will the preamp likely offer a little more overall SPL "headspace" by providing a bit higher mV signal to the amp(s) ?

Second, I am wondering and curious about utilizing a "non-tube" (SS?) preamp.   Feeling like the value (magic?) of tube amplification happens in the SET amplifiers themselves . . . making the goal to be providing the cleanest, unadulterated analog signal to the amp to make it's magic. So . . .

2) Are there any Decware SET amp users who utilize a non-Decware preamp  in there signal chain ?   And if so, experiences, brands/models, comparisons (pro's/cons) ?   I would be looking for min 3 source inputs, 3 outputs (could be a mix of XLR and RCA), volume control (remote would be great if that doesn't compromise the signal chain) and ability to balance volume across inputs.

One final comment . . . I have done lots of web surfing over the last 18 months.   I'm old enough to have a certain amount of skepticism when it comes to information available . . . opinions, reviews, blah blah blah.   One interesting (and unfortunately seemingly "siloed"?) group is at audiosciencereview.com.   I really like the idea of having in-depth numerical testing by electrical engineers . . . that said I am not of the mindset (as many on that forum are) of relying 100% on "the numbers".  For me, it would seem a great starting place - and then let your ears do the rest.  So, I posed my second question, re: using a solid-state preamp, is in part because of thinking that if - aside from meeting the user's "features" needs -the purpose of the preamp is to provide the purest unadulterated signal, then maybe the audiosciencereview way makes more sense when evaluating the first half of the signal chain (sources, DACs, preamps) and the "Ears" become more important listening to the back half of the signal chain (amps and speakers).   I dunno . . . just a theory developed while spending way too much time getting sucked into this world !  [smiley=10.gif]  

So, thanks for reading my diatribe (if you have made it through) and any advice / opinions re the couple of questions posed above are greatly appreciated !

Doug
Pittsburgh, PA

These papers from Steve may help:

https://www.decware.com/paper50.htm

https://www.decware.com/paper55.htm

25 years ago or so I bought my first Decware amp, the 27th Steve sold, and enjoyed it immensely without a preamp. A year or two later I bought my first Decware preamp and there was an increase in "heft" to the sound and a way to tailor the sound by "riding the gain" that I found appealing. I have used Decware preamps with my Decware amps (and a few others) ever since.

I've also slipped in a few solid state preamps--they work fine, but I've just become over the decades a tube person. . . I miss the tube sound whenever I have a solid state amp or preamp in use and whenever I can I use a tubed preamp--at this time I have a CSP3 with the Anniversary mods and a ZTPRE, each in a separate system.

Hi All -

thanks for the feedback and advice.   I have read quite a few of Steve's white papers . . . I'll go check these to see if they are ones I have read.  I definitely get the concept of keeping the chain simple.   That said, with all the gear - there is a possibility to link 4,5, or 6 units in series (source, buffers, preamps, tone control (Zrock), amp, and even crossovers within the speakers.   So source to amp to full range crossover-less full range driver is I suppose the simplest chain.   But my guess while that can sound really good (I ear witnessed that at Randy's - albeit with the addition of an OB bass unit and in a relatively small listening room), I know that Randy (and countless others) have been very happy adding a ZROCK into that mix to help enhance LF performance.  

So I have the Fast-8 magnums (which I have broken in, but know the bass is lacking, even in a small listening room) and when the ZROCK and amps arrive I'll start with the UF02.1 and the above.   I understand the ZROCK is magnificent and very impactful in this type of situation.

My questions posed were really towards future plans - where I expect to have a pretty large room (TBD, but likely 15 x 24 or perhaps a bit bigger, with 12ft+ ceilings in part of the room.   So knowing that system will have at least 2 sources and I would like it to be able to switch sources without moving interconnects every time.   Which lead to the question of preamp.   And while I didnt really ask this (Lon has kinda of answered it anyways) - what I'm wondering is if you have say 1 tube device (eg UF02.1 amp) in the chain - does that get a significant portion (90% or 95%) of the benefits (reduction or elimination of listening fatigue, disappearing speakers, "like you're there" soundstage, realistic timbre of voices, pianos, and other instruments) ?  Said another way, do the additional decware tube devices (preamp, tube buffer, tube gain) have diminishing returns vs. the impact of and when "layered" onto a low power SET amp ?   Clearly Lon is a fan of having multiple units in the chain - it sounds like each additional tube stage adds to these characteristics.  

I know these questions are really difficult to answer - and there are lots of other factors in play.  But I am also trying to be semi-pragmatic (like most in the forum) of getting biggest bang for the buck.   An example would be something like a Schiit Freya preamp which is highly rated from a purely imperical / electrical testing standpoint (and costs $700 vs. $3K for a Decware pre with switching,etc).  So does using something of that quality in front of a UF02.1 diminish those virtues acheived by the amp . . . or does it just fail to "layer on more goodness" in the way Lon describes.

Lon - IIRC you are in Ohio - Cleveland / Youngstown ish ? ?   If you would be willing to take a visitor (me!) and spend an hour or two explaining your system and "journey" (such an overused word - sorry, uuuggh) I would be super excited to meet one of the Decware OG's and learn more !

Let me know - if your willing - and if so, what might work over the next couple of months (I am heading out of town for the balance of this week).  If this is too forward of a request, just tell me thanks but no thanks !

Best to all
Doug

That is certainly something I like to participate in if possible. Is three a crowd?

John, I'm not sure at the moment I can entertain 1 let alone 2. Will see later on . . . .

Wow, just as I started to chant “road trip, road trip” to Cindy my dreams have been dashed. I was hoping to be able to experience for myself this ear of the beekeeper nirvana. I’ll just continue to learn the old fashioned way, bangin’ rocks together.


Narwhals, narwhals swimming in the ocean, causing a commotion, cause they are so awesome.