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Hum on Zenkit 1 amp (Read 2914 times)
goso64
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Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
12/29/22 at 23:10:52
 
Hello,

I hear hum when I turn up the volume (no input signal) and it gets louder as I get close to max on the volume knob.

Below are 2 pics BEFORE and AFTER - Before I shortened and twisted the Power Transformer leads and After I shortened and twisted the leads.

Unfortunately, this did not help reduce the Hum.  Is there somewhere else I can experiment?  Maybe the Volume knob itself?  Should I shorten the leads on the output Transformers?  Any comments are greatly appreciated.

goso64

BEFORE:




AFTER:

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4krow
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #1 - 12/30/22 at 00:11:59
 
Just to make sure that I understand, does the hum come from both channels? And have you shorted the inputs when you test the amp? If the hum comes from one channel only then that would lead in a different direction.
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Mannytheseacow
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #2 - 12/30/22 at 16:49:53
 
It’s hard to tell from the photo, but is the case of the volume pot grounded?  I assume that’s a tin chassis but don’t want to overlook the obvious.
Tried different tubes? Different outlet? Rotate the output transformers 90 degrees from the power transformer?
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4krow
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #3 - 12/30/22 at 19:03:08
 
Good point about the volume control. FWIW, I see that there may be another hole for the volume control to be mounted right about the input on the board. This would move the sensitive signal wires away from the AC, at least better than they are now. I know, it is a tighter fit, but the reasoning will prove itself. You could even remove the volume control from the present place on the chassis, away from where it is now, just to see if it has an effect on the hum.
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goso64
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #4 - 12/31/22 at 17:24:49
 
Thank you all for your replies.

Hum occurs only after the volume is at least 80% enabled, and increases until 100%.

@4krow
1. I shorted the inputs and turned up the volume on the amp - zero hum.
2. I connected preamp inputs and zero volume from the amp and zero from the preamp and I get zero hum.  Then I increased volume on amp - hum on both speakers.  Also, the preamp does not add to the hum.  I hear hum only when I increase the amp volume.

@Mannytheseacow
1. Yes, aluminum chassis and volume is grounded to the box.
2. Have tried 4 sets of tubes and all exhibit hum as described.

Regarding the Volume Knob wiring/placement:  I used 3 conductor 18AWG wire for connection from volume to board. the shield is not connected.

Based on the results of all these tests, I will concentrate a bit on the Volume knob.  

After the holiday, I'll try moving the knob closer to the board, strip the insulation, shorten the leads, and wire the 6 leads without the jacket.  The leads will be much shorter, maybe this will help.

Thank you both for your feedback - much appreciated and HNY!
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goso64
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #5 - 03/26/23 at 04:13:24
 
I have rebuilt my amp and chassis (see pics).  I used a different POT, with solder lugs but same specs as orig.  

I also grounded the POT to the board (see pic).  This helped - about 40% better now.

I still have hum that increases with volume, even though the preamp driving the input is connected but powered off.

When I disconnect both RCA inputs, there is a slight hum but it does not increase with Volume.  

Here are some measurements on the new amp:

A = measured - 343 vdc, s/b 346 +/- 10VDC

B = measured - 310 vdc, s/b 309 +/- 10 VDC.

C = measured 10 vdc , s/b 10.25 +/- 2 VDC.

D pin 3 6922  measured 2.38 vdc,  s/b 2.6 +/- 1/2 VDC.

D pin 8 6922 measured 2.4 vdc, s/b/ 2.6 +/- 1/2 VDC

Output Tube Bias current - calculated by measuring the voltage drop across 150 ohm 5W resistor = 66 mA

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.  Thanks.





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4krow
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #6 - 04/10/23 at 02:25:25
 
 Sorry that I am only replying now. For some reason, I do not see any of your photos of this unit that were here before. I want to take another look and see if there is something that we have missed.
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goso64
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #7 - 04/10/23 at 22:35:27
 
ok I'm reposting the pics of version 2 of the amp.  Thanks for reaching out.




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goso64
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #8 - 04/10/23 at 22:56:45
 
Posting some data taken with my oscilloscope at various points of the circuit.  Looks like 60 Hz signal - now how to get rid of it??

Pics are numbers 1-6 in RED at the bottom.  Except for pic 6, all data taken with volume at max, speakers connected, and rca inputs connected but preamp is turned off.  Pic 6 has volume turned down to zero.

Pic 1:  At the speaker terminals

Pic 2: Blue wires of output transformers, which is the same as pin 7 of output tubes.

Pic 3: At input tube Pins 2 and 7

Pic 4: After 0.1uF cap and before the grid resistors of the output tubes.

Pic 5: at pin 9 of each output tube

Pic 6: At speaker terminals with volume at MIN (zero).






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goso64
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #9 - 04/11/23 at 01:33:34
 
Actually, pics 2, 4, and 5 show 120Hz signal awhile pic6 at the speaker terminals shows a 60Hz signal. I've read that 120Hz hum may indicate ground loop problem. Any ideas here??  Thanks in advance.
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Mannytheseacow
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #10 - 04/11/23 at 04:45:22
 
Is it possible that you overheated the volume pot? In my limited experience grounding to the pot case it’s easy to get it too hot… it’s a delicate balance getting it to stick but not getting it too hot. Then the shrink wrapping must have required some heat too on the terminals. A cheap fix worth trying? Maybe just replace it, don’t ground the case and don’t add the shrink tubing?
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4krow
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #11 - 04/11/23 at 15:54:15
 
All in all, there is only one thing that keeps poking me in the side, and that is about the volume control. I am also going to tell you that it isn't real likely that this is your problem, but I think that it needs replaced and the wires as well. The reason that this is on my mind is that before you can move on, the possibility of this being an issue has to be dealt with first. Let me just say that it takes less heat to solder finer wire (which is all that is needed in this case) than it does thick wire, such as you have used here. You might find that 22-24 gauge solid core wire will be easier to work with too. Stranded wire can 'reach' all over the place and make contact where it shouldn't. Secondly, changing the control itself will give you an opportunity to buy a better pot. Yes, I am being picky here. It is just that the better pots are more robust and some are sealed to prevent dirt from entering the pot. Since you are into the piece working things over, this is a chance to rectify two things that, while not necessarily the problem, don't help in the overall scheme of things. I am not sure that a pot needs to be grounded if it is already making contact with the chassis, but since you said that there was reduction in hum after doing this, it throws more of my concern in the direction of the pot to begin with.
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goso64
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #12 - 04/12/23 at 00:12:54
 
Thanks Mannytheseacow and 4krow for your comments.

I cut the hole in the chassis for the pot a bit too large. So the pot wasn't making good contact with the chassis and led me to grounding the case. It did make an improvement.

I have a spare pot and can certainly try again with Manny's suggestions to see if any improvement.

Also, I did buy a couple Alps KAX2 100K pots - better quality like 4krow suggests. But it's much larger than the pot I'm currently using and it won't fit because I drilled the hole for the pot too close to the pads on the board (ugh)

If Manny's digestion doesn't work, I'll try the Alps pot but it will mean building a new case (again), cutting all the holes, repainting etc.

Thanks again for both your suggestions.
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Sean
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #13 - 04/12/23 at 01:35:50
 
Just a suggestion, why not drill the pot hole out a bit. You’ll be left with an oval hole. You can real thin Teflon washers at the big box store, simply hide the enlongated hole with the washer. I really admire the work you’ve done, I made a set of rca’s last night and that tops out my stress level for having the solder station on. It cramps my neck up something fierce.
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goso64
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #14 - 04/12/23 at 12:19:35
 
Hmmm, thanks for your suggestion Sean. I will consider it if I get to the point of using the Alps pot.
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goso64
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #15 - 04/18/23 at 00:50:40
 
Today, I performed an experiment.  I disconnected the POT entirely, and removed all wires from the POT including the ground wire.  Then I soldered it directly to the board - of course the POT is now upside down so the volume orientation is flipped - turn POT to the left to increase the volume instead of decrease it etc.  Just wanted to remove wiring 100% from the equation.

Unfortunately, the noise is still present with no improvement.

Admittedly, it's only noticeable during extremely quiet music (and track transition dead space) but it still bothers me and I want to get to the bottom of it. I'm a perfectionist Smiley

So, I have to conclude one of 3 things:

1. I have a cheap POT
2. I am hearing inherent noise in the design (hard to accept)
3. I may have a ground loop problem.

Next step is to install the ALPS 100K POT - I've read good things about the quality.  Should be better than my $2 POT (no PUN)

Regarding the possibility of a ground loop: I have the ground from the IEC directly connected to the chassis.  I have board GND connected to the chassis via one of the screws holding my Power Transformer to the chassis, only a couple inches away.  Any concerns there??

As always, many thanks to everyone for your comments and feedback.
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Mannytheseacow
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #16 - 04/18/23 at 05:12:21
 
I’ve been scouring the zkit forums and I’m starting to think the hum may be inherent in the design or inherent in the transformer. There are some threads that talk about using larger capacitance in the power supply section and substituting motor run capacitors. For me personally I can deal with a little hum rather than perpetually chasing the hum rabbit, knowing that my speakers have a super-high efficiency and the overall sound is killer except for when there’s no music playing. It is annoying during quiet passages though.
I don’t think your ground connection to the chassis is an issue, though it is easy enough to substitute a different ground location and cross that one off the list.
And, you can check off the pot quality by just hard wiring it with no pot. If you have any kind of volume control on your front end just remove the pot and run it wide open, or try a 50k resistor across it. I would guess you’ll find no change in the noise.
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bobc
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Re: Hum on Zenkit 1 amp
Reply #17 - 04/18/23 at 14:56:58
 
You will hear very slight 120hz hum at speaker cone, louder or soft depending on speaker efficiency, but at a fixed level, independent of volume. This is from the power supply and normal. Loads of threads about adding capacitance choke etc if that’s your thing.

My experience is that those little pots are notoriously fragile. I would suggest physically removing pot for testing. Put a 100k from input to ground when you do this. You can use an external volume at source. Sometimes grounding the case of the pot helps, even the heat of soldering to the case can cause problems tho… Wiggle the pot and its body with amp playing…. If you still have the loud hum I’d check / reflow solder joints everywhere, if it varies in volume you may have a ground loop somewhere.
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