I’ve not had any of the flea watt SE84 lineup. However I once owned a flea watt pentode amp, a Taboo MK 4, and never making that kind of mistake again.

But I can say that in terms of versatility and tunability the Torii, on the low end of a medium powered amp, blows the SE84 anything out of the water. The flea watt amp will keep you far more limited in speaker choice and room type than the Torii.

I would think of the choice in terms of a long term strategy rather than a short term tactic. You don’t want your amp wheezing and running out of steam. This is especially important since a wait time is like forever.

Brad

40 year audiophile with more systems than I can remember during that time, most of it bought used.

And I have no idea What speakers or amps I will own next year though it might be what I have now.

What are your tendencies, how often do you like to experiment / change?

If you do change often, What flexibility will your amps provide with different speakers?

Regardless of all of that, the Decware used market is strong reducing financial penalties for any desired change

1.5 + year Audiophile here.

Great question here. As everyone states above it kinda depends on how you listen, how loud do you truly listen, and how well the amp couples with your speakers.

What are you looking for, slam, subtly, finesse, the ability to blow the paint off of your neighbor's garage door?

You need to step back and look at your true needs and then the correct answer will be obvious to you.

The old adage about needing tons of power so that you can play 110 db peaks in music aren't of any concerns to you if you play at 80 db.

See what I mean, horses for courses.

I haven't received my amp yet but I am on the bottom of page 3! I decided to go with a Toriii Jr as I wanted to have greater flexibility to be able to pair the amp with a greater variety of speakers in a larger space. In theory a 20 Watt Torii Jr should be able to produce 9dB more volume then a 2.3 watt SE84UFO. Since I am somewhat limited at home by WAF issues, I decided to get the most versatile, high value amp in the Decware lineup (Torii Jr = "The Last Amp You'll Ever Need").

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In a month I'll be able to verify this... I'm guessing the 300B Sarah is more along the lines of the UFO amp. Both being single ended.

There is a difference between SET and Push Pull designs. Not taking in power. They sound different and people have preferences for one of the other.

Last year at DECFEST, most of the people said they preferred the PP sound over the SET sound. That might have been because the MKV was the new kid?

The Torii MKV much more tune-able than the UFO in my experiments. If there is a specific sound you are searching for, the MKV has more options available. I've found I can get the Torii MKIV to sound very close to the UFO25TH. The UFO25TH cannot get close to some of the sounds I can get out of the MKIV.

Wow, I continue to be mystified by your experience with the Taboo and those high efficiency speakers.

I use the same amp, ZBIT and ZROCK2 with 92.5 db HR-1 speakers in a room 2.5 times larger than that you were in and sit about 10' or so away from the speakers and don't run out of steam unless I am blasting video material with copious low frequency energy. So I can conclude we must hear very differently.

In my other system I use the same speakers and the SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with even less power and the room is as long but narrower, I sit 8 feet from the speakers and don't run out of steam on music, which is all this system is used for. In fact I have lots of headroom if I chose to harm my ears by blasting music at them.

And it's true that the SET and push-pull sounds are very different. After years of push-pull I have no desire to go back to that sound, to me it is more hifi than the more natural sound of the Zen amps.

I only hope that when you actually finally hear a Torii Mk V you enjoy it. I'm looking forward to the 300B, with a lot of patience, for a different experience of the SET sound.

Brad,

As to your initial experience, I can't remember if you have mentioned what output tubes you selected. I picked KT66 for my pending MKV but am thinking I might just have it shipped with EL34s.

Andrew

GroovySauce wrote on 09/15/22 at 16:28:56:


I'd wager that my SE84UFO3 as built by Steve and the SE84UFO25 are as tunable with the exception of a few output tube types (ours can use at least three)--we have voltage regulation for both input and output, two speaker selection positions, two bias positions, dual volume controls, and in the case of mine treble reduction circuits. Just sayin' . . . .

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On my UFOs I've tried 3 different 6P15P types, that ranged from yuck to really good. A couple (Russian) EL84 types that I didn't like at all. EL83s (with custom made adapters to preserve the Hazen grid mod) that sounded great, and my current favorite : EL822s with 6CH6 to EL84 adapters that are giving me the best sound yet. And that is even without VR tubes in the mix.

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Brad put those stock tubes in their boxes. Let her rip! Your going to be blown away.

Joseph

When I was deciding to go to low power/high efficiency I also considered the Taboo vs the UFO2.  I had a conversation with Steve and he asked me a few questions and then offered some comments.  I also noted that using speakers the Taboo would do better with 8 ohm vs 4 ohm speakers whereas, specifically the UFO25, can run 2ohm - 16 ohm and had a hi/lo impedance switch to better match speakers to the amp.

That along with Steves comments led me to conclude that the design origins of the Taboo would make it best suited as a headphone amp and that it would have certain limitations with speakers that the UFO25 would not.  So in the case of the Taboo vs the UFO25 it's also about system synergy in which power is a factor but not the be all and end all sole deciding factor.

FWIW... I also found that my experience with high power low efficiency systems had similar limitations.  You can't throw just any low efficiency speaker in a high power system and and expect stellar results.

Thanks Tommy!

Audio over the past couple months hasn’t been much of a priority, so more to come when I get it together.

From what little I heard so far, I’m smitten. Armchair quarterbacking (happens ever Sunday after a bigly beautiful dose of college football Saturdays, lol, others might see what I also did there), I just wish I was smart enough not to have made my previous mistake.

Brad

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Lon, I find the opposite. I find SET to be too relaxed not enough intensity. I do not like in your face and aggressive. I prefer a softer laid back sound. SET just goes too far and can sound lazy at times.

SET does have togetherness that PP doesn’t have.

CAJames, Lon and anyone else, I’m up to try a few more tubes with the UFO25TH. What are your suggestions for driver tubes?

I’m looking to tighten things up. I’ve tried A-D VR tubes in all the positions. The rear ones were not happy with the 0D3… it might have been the 0C3. It was a constant buzz from the tube itself, surprisingly no buzz from the speakers.

Looking for lots of information without becoming dry and analytical. Also want it to be euphoric and enveloping.

My hunch is SET just doesn’t have control for speakers.

It could also be that some people are wired for SET and some are wired for PP.

Herbert, The UFO25TH is a fantastic amp. We are talking about world class amp and which flavor we prefer.

Lon, I agree, my brother and I can both agree if a component is a quality piece or not. We both enjoy a different sound. We are both sensitive to high frequencies, He prefers a bit more snap and tightness, I prefer a bit more mellow and euphoric.

I find the 6N1P to be too plump and laid back. Reminds me of the “classic tube sound”

I do have a pair of Amperex 6085s. I’ll see if I have adapter bases, if not I’ll order a pair.

Is the “Smokey” going to be labeled as smokey? Or, look for smoked glass?

CAJames, What 6P15P did you like best? What was it you like more than the others?

Brad, I’m still scratching my head how you didn’t have enough volume with the Taboo. Running the UFO25 on 91 db speakers it was more than enough volume in a medium sized room.

Brad……Congratulations on finally getting and enjoying your Torii MKV.  I am truly enjoying mine and couldn’t have been more enthralled with my decision on that purchase.  Right before I purchased my MKIV 25th..I contemplated buying the SE84UFO25. Basically it boils down to headroom for me and I felt that in my larger space with vaulted ceilings and open floor plan I didn’t want out of headroom not so much for late night listening but for when having company over.

BUT….I will say that the sound that the ZEN amp throws truly is magical and very intoxicating.  Part of my original decision was the concern of headroom that the ZEN amp would fall a bit short.  I just recently acquired an SE84C+ that is currently at Decware for the full mud upgrade.  The Zen amp has no problem powering my Decware ERR speakers… which I was a bit surprised at.    The SET sound has the way of drawing you in.  I am blessed to now have both amps…PUSH PULL and SET sound.   It will be interesting to see which amp gets more playtime on a regular basis once I get it back from Decware.  

The takeaway here for the original poster is the pairing of your speakers with the amp and how loud you like to play and listen to your music.    Room treatment should also be taken into consideration and  both amplifiers are fantastic… But it seems that the  Torii does give you a tad bit more tunability with all of the features like the bass and treble adjustments and tube choices.  

Dom

CAJames wrote on 09/17/22 at 15:15:33:

I've tried almost every one of these tubes mentioned. I do really like the 6CG7 but my favorites are still the 6085 directly into my Monoblocks. And 7308s in the CSP3, CSP2+ and Taboo.

I've ordered a pair of EL-82 and adaptors to try, those are the ones I have no experience with and would like to try. So far I've settled on the cryo'd tubes that Steve sent to Watham as having a slight edge over the other types (I'm not convinced my bases allow the EL83 to utilize the Hazen Grid Mod which is a factor I believe in my choices).

I totally agree about the relationship and importance of the input tube and rectifier, but will also add that in the case of my Monoblocks  the voltage regulation tubes for both input and output have as close a connection to the overall wonder of a tube complement.

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Same here. For me, the UFOs are Goldilocks. Just the right combination of transparency, speed, warmth and dynamics. Certainly more of all of those then my 100 watt Pass SEM (single ended MOSFET) amps that I had for decades and thought were the end game.
 

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Yes, though the way Steve seems to be implementing the power output of the Sarah the power differential is not that big in comparison to the Zen amps. I've been looking at 300B tubes and there is a huge range of tubes available from not so expensive to WTF!

I've just had an experience that really shows the potential in the UFO25 SE/low power amp and the importance of taking several factors into consideration when choosing SE or PP amps as this will definitely apply to both equally.

I had to remove my CSP3-A and have not got it back yet, hopefully next week.  So what happened was with the CSP3-A out of the chain.  The UFO25 has a complete complement of CryoTone tubes, 5AR4, EL84 and of particular note note in this scenario is the input tube which is the CryoTone 12AU7-WCL Long Plate (with an adapter).  It is a LOWER GAIN tube than normally used in this position.

Here's the chain: Lumin U2 Mini, OPPO BDP103D, Chord Qutest, ZROCK2-A and the UFO25.  The speakers are Omega Vintage 8 HO.

As I listened I adjusted the ZROCK2-A EQ setting to the A or up position, the UFO25 speaker impedance switch to the rear position and the input bias switch to the rear position.

Initially I just wanted to hear the Lumin and the Qutest but had to do so without the CSP3-A in the chain and a low gain input tube in the UFO25.  With the CSP3-A out I thought that I would only get a taste of what will be when the CSP3 is back in.  Well I ended up listening all day and well into the night!

There was volume, solidity, layering, liquidity, presence, detail retrieval across the spectrum including bass and absolutely no edginess, brittleness or hardness.  

I asked my wife to listen for a while and she looked at me and noted that I had that "I wonder what would happen if" expression on my face and said, "you realize that for most sane people this would be and END game???!  RIGHT!

At the time I was wondering what would happen if I eliminated the CSP3-A and the Lumin U2 Mini (which I just took delivery of) and put a Chord Dave or WEISS 501 or the DCS Lina in place (not that the Lumin or CSP3-A are lacking, both are is surprisingly good).

So what's the point?  It's not just about one thing.  It's not just about PP vs SE and it's definitely not about plug and play (according to my wife, plug and play is for sane people, not for audiophiles).  It's about knowing what you want as each of our tastes vary and then being prepared to work it through to each ones end game system be it SE or PP.  

For me, knowing exactly what I wanted took a while to crystallize.  I went through a lot of components.  That is hard to figure out at the outset but sooner or later that will have to happen if one will be satisfied and content with what ones system does.

For me it was easier to figure out with the UFO25 SE low power amp.  That definitely is my end game amp. Now, back to I wonder....

Thanks Tony.  I don't know about the "well written".  Keep reminding myself to check and correct, I thought I did.  Hopefully the thought is still there in-spite of the errors.

Might turn off spell check... turning out to be my worst enema!

UFO2s on order:597 (17 double orders).

Most popular Decware amp. It would be interesting to know how many of these were ordered with the balanced input option. Every now and then I wonder if I should go with monoblock balanced UFO2s, fully pimped, but Steve just recently referred (in the 300B thread, I think) to the sound of the UFO25 as Decware's "holy grail." Little dropped comments like this keep me in the UFO25 column.

USO25s on order:155, 15 double orders.

10% of USF25 buyers seem to be going for monoblocks.

MKVs on order: 68  (54 with upgrade mods)

I guess you can make what you want of this. The MKV with anniversary mods is a good bit more expensive than the UFO25, which surely has an influence.

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Dom, thank you! With my attention being paid to things over the past couple months being a higher priority, I’ve only listened maybe a total of 30 mins. The difference however is monumental IMO. Though I have to say much better speakers in the more recent Turning Point HR-1’s are vastly superior to my ears and in my treated room than the Omega single drivers ever were with the Taboo. Even with a ZR2-25th and an Omega Deephemp 8 sub, that sound was still too thin, especially on the bottom, on too many recordings.

I might actually consider an older Decware SE84C type to audition just for shits and giggles, as long as it’s pretty cheap, like $400. It could be readily re-sold in s hurry. I will not consider spending anywhere near the market value on a current SE84UFO type. I’d rather put the extra that would be paid into auditioning a Space Tech Labs choke-optioned super rectifier with the interesting options on tuning that affords. Since the fleawatt SEP sound didn’t cut the mustard, I have pretty high doubts the fleawatt SET sound would be enough to really matter. But hey, as I mentioned I could consider a trial just for the hell if it, as long as the investment is very minimal. Right now I imagine I would tire too quick of the SET. But you don’t know for absolute certain until you know. If it were to pass muster, I’d probably put it in storage as a backup to my 2nd casual listening system in the living room.

Brad

Brad,

If you do have a chance to visit the DECWARE SET sound I'm curious if you will have a similar experience to mine.

I hope you get some good listening sessions in, in the near future.

My MKV is in QC now. Looks like I'll pick it up at DECFEST.

GroovySauce,

All about symmetry!

Nigel, It's cool to hear about your experiments.

Joseph