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ZROCK2 with Rogue RP7 (Read 2558 times)
Doofus
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ZROCK2 with Rogue RP7
03/16/22 at 03:38:31
 
Hi, wondering if anyone has experience using the ZROCK with a Rogue RP7 pre-amp. The Rogue has a pre-processor loop where the ZROCK can be connected.

My big concern / issue is the noted voltage limit for the ZROCK of 4v and whether the Rogue processor loop may go above this. I have a Cambridge Audio CXN v2 using the XLR balanced inputs to the pre-amp.

Thanks
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Edsonic
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Re: ZROCK2 with Rogue RP7
Reply #1 - 03/16/22 at 17:05:26
 
The Rougue preamp states a max output of  9V from unbalanced out, which describes the loop  connections. This would only occur from a really loud short term peak. The 9V is describing capability, that's all. Unless you listen to the system tremendously loud, I wouldn't imagine the output  peaking higher than 4V, and that on rare occasion.

The CXN streamer doesn't state output level, so I think it's safe to assume the industry standard 2V, which is 0dBFS, that is, -maximum- of 2V. Most amplifiers are really loud (if they have the power) w/ that level of input. If anything, your volume control is likely attenuating the input signal much of the time.

In any case I think the 4V  max for ZR2 is in reference to the point beyond which overload distortion starts. It's a tube device, so more reasonably impervious to short term overload events. I seriously doubt occasional short term peaks of even 9V (which I think very unlikely in this situation) would 'break' the ZR2; worst case it would shorten tube life a bit.
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Archie
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Re: ZROCK2 with Rogue RP7
Reply #2 - 03/16/22 at 17:12:49
 
Quote:
My big concern / issue is the noted voltage limit for the ZROCK of 4v


I thought the ZR2 input limit was 15V?  I have mine after my CSP3 and I sure am putting more into it than 4 volts.  Where are you getting 4V?

From the specs:  Input voltage   0 ~ 15 volts max
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ZLC
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ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
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Edsonic
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Re: ZROCK2 with Rogue RP7
Reply #3 - 03/16/22 at 17:15:44
 
The product description page says 15V. The manual says "Input voltage 4 volts max"

How do you know the voltage level into your ZR2?
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Archie
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Re: ZROCK2 with Rogue RP7
Reply #4 - 03/16/22 at 17:23:09
 
CSP3 INPUT VOLTAGE CHART w/ 5U4 and 6N1P-EB

Note:  Outputs set to full, Volume set to full.  Input pots set to zero and charted through their range.

2V INPUT SIGNAL, 528Hz

Position =  Volts
0 = 0V
1 = 156mV
2 = 492mV
3 = 1.53V
4 = 2.8V
5 = 4.0V
6 = 5.1V
7 = 12.22V
8 = 25.0 V
9 = 32.0 V
10 = 32.0V

1V INPUT SIGNAL, 528Hz

Position = Volts
0 = 0V
1 = 60mV
2 = 200mV
3 = 552mV
4 = 1.05V
5 = 1.5V
6 = 1.9V
7 = 4.8V
8 = 7.7V
9 = 10.12V
10 = 10.12V

The max input voltage with the input control set all the way up is 3.38V.  At that point slight clipping is seen at the full 35V output.  If you trim the master volume down and the output control down, the distortion will become inaudible but it will still be there, just at 15 times lower level.  That means you can shove 10 volts into it but it will always sound better set to 3.38 or less.

Keep in mind these figures are with the CSP3 connected to my test gear which is 178KOhms so the output voltage will vary somewhat into different loads.  Also keep in mind the 120V at the outlet and the tubes you use will effect these results making them go up or down.

Steve
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Archie
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Re: ZROCK2 with Rogue RP7
Reply #5 - 03/16/22 at 17:25:22
 
It's just a guess but I think the Manual is for the original ZROCK and not the ZROCKII.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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GroovySauce
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Re: ZROCK2 with Rogue RP7
Reply #6 - 03/16/22 at 17:35:36
 
Running my MAY DAC RCA (2.9v) into the ZROCK2 will get distortion on peaks and hot tracks. I added a -10 DB Rothwell inline RCA attenuator and all is well.

EDIT:

2v is enough voltage for most amps to reach full output. It's a matter of playing with gain structure before the ZROCK2.

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Edsonic
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Re: ZROCK2 with Rogue RP7
Reply #7 - 03/16/22 at 18:15:34
 
Archiie

Outputs set to full, Volume set to full.  Input pots set to zero and charted through their range.

I know you have your (CP3) volume set pretty high, but what about the input and output controls?

Your DAC you say is louder (through the CP3) than your phono input. Assuming 2V dBFS (maximum level) from the DAC, the average level would likely be at least 10dB below that, or ~ .63V, which that being 6dB above the reference level for consumer gear- .316V. In any case a full 2V would only occur as a short term spike in real life.

Beyond that, with out knowing the input and output levels you set (aside the volume setting) it's not possible to estimate what's actually going out.


It could be that the 15V means an absolute max input, and 4V is max before onset of distortion. Somewhat like the info at the bottom of the chart you posted, where Steve says "That means you can shove 10 volts into it (CP3) but it will always sound better set to 3.38 or less." But what you say about ZR vs. ZR2 could explain it. More likely that.


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Edsonic
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Re: ZROCK2 with Rogue RP7
Reply #8 - 03/16/22 at 18:45:36
 
GS, thanks for that r/l info.

My thinking is that if the OP's Rougue-amplifer-speaker system isn't distorting at loud levels now, the processor  loop output level is likely a good bit less than 4V. As you say, 2V = full power for most amplifiers, and I'm assuming the preamp is sending the same level to loop output as being sent to line out to the amplifier.

I should have had that last sentence in my first response, actually.
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Archie
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Re: ZROCK2 with Rogue RP7
Reply #9 - 03/16/22 at 22:32:48
 
My inputs are set to 7 and everything else is full on.  I sometimes bump them up a click on vinyl and either leave them as is or back them off a click for CDs.  I just go off of Steve's voltage chart.

You'll have to search old posts or ask Steve but I'm pretty sure that 4V max input is a hold over from the original ZROCK which didn't last long.  Steve doesn't necessarily update his manuals.  

On the Forum we've discussed placing the ZR2 both before and after the CSP3 and if 4 volts was the maximum no distortion input I don't think this would have come up.  I don't hear distortion in either position but maybe others do?
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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DancingSea
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Re: ZROCK2 with Rogue RP7
Reply #10 - 05/27/22 at 02:38:12
 
I've had a recent brush with clipping on deep bass tracks and believe the ZR2 is the culprit.

My Marantz SACD 30n outputs 2.5V (fixed) or up to 5V max (variable).  I have the ZR2 between the Marantz and the CSP3.  When I had the Marantz in variable  mode (to use the remote for volume control) and the gain on the CSP3 relatively high, I had no clipping issues.

Decided to lower the gain on the CSP3 which required an increase in volume on the Marantz which must've sent a higher than 4V signal out to the ZR2, and clipping resulted.

With the Marantz set to fixed (2.5V), there is never clipping no matter how deep the bass.

This is, at least, my theory.
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