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tube rolling virgin (Read 1798 times)
Coyote
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tube rolling virgin
12/01/21 at 00:09:16
 

593 on the waiting list.

Time is fast approaching  ;-)  when I will get a call from Sarah saying my UFO2 is shipping.

I am wondering if at the same time I should get a tube or two extra to swap and see for myself what tube rolling does.

Should I wait a bit to put some hours on the unit or order some separately or have everything shipped together?

Without breaking the bank which tube(s) would produce the biggest effect?
Or should I say what changes to expect by say changing the 5U4G for a 274b rectifier versus changing the input tubes or changing the output tubes??

It is all academical for me at the moment but any opinion / discussion could be interesting.

If you had only one of the three (output, input or rectifier) which one would you roll?

Cheers,

a.


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My modest system:
SE84UFO2.(2).
Quad mono 303 (x2) + 33 + FM3.
Marantz 2235.
Schiit Mani.
Technic SL23.
Thorens TD160 MKII + SME III tonearm. Ortophon OM10.
Oppo CD/DVD.
Celestion Ditton 66 studio.
Lii F15 in Betsy type OB.
ATAUDIO 12TC Pure OCC.
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Lon
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Re: tube rolling virgin
Reply #1 - 12/01/21 at 00:34:10
 
I would roll the rectifier first. If you order a 274B be sure it is the Valve Audio, the Shuguang or the Sophia Electric Aqua--those that are electrically most similar to the 5U4 type.

I really like the Aqua, and I really like RCA 5V4G rectifiers.

But. . . get the amp first and listen to the stock tubes for a few months. . . to get a baseline.
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CAJames
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Re: tube rolling virgin
Reply #2 - 12/01/21 at 03:02:00
 
The stock input and power tubes are excellent. You can stick with them and be very happy but there are plenty of threads about other options if you are #tubecurious. However, I have a somewhat different opinion than Lon regarding the stock rectifier. Below is a quote from Steve that lines up with my thoughts as well (emphasis added by me).

Quote:
e: Roll Rachael Roll
Reply #13 - 06/23/20 at 06:08:32
Some great feedback regarding quality tubes...  

The beauty of a tube amp is that you can change the tubes.  You can change the tubes when they grow tired and lazy sounding over time... or you can change the tubes when you grow bored or just want to take a different seat in the music hall so that you can hear the music from a different perspective. So this leads to tube rolling which leads to brands and types... and here is some of what I know that you should know:


Current production vs. New Old Stock. In my experience the only consistently solid tubes on the market today come from Russia. Brands like Mullard, Tungsol, Electro Harmonix, Sovtek, Svetlana. The rights to these brand names have been acquired over the years by New Sensor Corp in the USA, who is predominately a tube supplier for the music industry / guitar amps. They own or partially own factories in Russia.

Decware purchases it's Russian tubes direct from Russia in bulk with the exception of the larger output tubes (EL34/KT66/KT88) which are current production branded tubes imported into the USA. All of the the Russian tubes that we purchase direct from Russia are N.O.S. Russian Military Grade tubes. Many of them have Gold grids, thick glass, high G ratings for missile use, and longer life, in some cases 10,000 hours.  These are ultra-hi-end tubes in disguise and have always been.   To hear how good these tubes are you have to install an American New Old Stock rectifier tube.

My experience with Boutique Chinese brands is mixed. The sound is good, the reliability and or consistency is ridiculous. I have been purchasing samples of these fancy tubes as they come out over the past many years and I have an entire collection of crippled tubes. Even KT88's that cost $1600 a quad drifted out of usable tolerance within days and had to be replaced.

New Old Stock is the real deal. Those who like to push the envelope of what is possible with their amplifier will often go down this path with no regrets. For one thing, the tubes not only sound better, but often last longer, in some cases like with rectifier tubes up to 10 times longer.

Rectifiers are a subject all in their own. Russian rectifiers are acceptable, everything else is a no-go from a reliability standpoint with some rare exceptions that are very pricey. My advise to all Decware amplifier owners is to find yourself a New Old Stock 5U4 or a 5R4 that has never been used and comes in it's original un-molested box. Consider the current production rectifier tube we ship with the amp the best sounding and most attractive  option that will last long enough for you to find a real N.O.S. replacement.

Finding N.O.S. tubes is easy, even on eBay there are millions. Since you only need one or two you will have more to choose from than you know what to do with.  Finding quantity of these tubes is another story. If Decware could secure reliable inventory of 1000's of N.O.S. rectifiers, it is an investment we would gladly make but in 25 years is has yet to happen. Because we can't find N.O.S. tubes in large quantities, even batches of 100 would be gone in less than 30 days, we feel there is no point in even trying.  


For the customer it is easy, just find a N.O.S. 5U4 tube on eBay that is unused, and in it's original box for $40 and it could easily last for 10 years or more and sound better the entire time.

As an amplifier designer, it is possible to create circuits that baby the rectifier tube by limiting inrush current, using smaller capacitors, running higher voltages with a choke and so on.  Correctly done, this can make a Chinese rectifier tube last the full rated 500 hours or more.  The problem with this is that it changes the sound quality of the amplifier well outside what we find acceptable.  So, we have to make a choice, do we design tube amplifiers to baby the crappie rectifier tubes being made today, or do we design amplifiers to use REAL tubes.  Of course the answer has to be REAL tubes, because we make real amps.


My suggestion is to check out this thread:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1605822949

For advice on getting a NOS rectifier (or 2 or 3) to replace the one that ships with your amp. I never even opened the stock rectifier and went straight to a NOS one.

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Dominick
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Re: tube rolling virgin
Reply #3 - 12/01/21 at 14:55:36
 
Like Lon said….I would first listen to it stock for a few months so you can get a feel for the sound signature of the amp.   Then I would roll the rectifier first. I did this with my Torii MKIV and went with a Raytheon NOS 5U4GB.  There was very noticeable difference in the sound.  Brent Jesse’s website is a good source of general information on tubes.  

http://www.audiotubes.com/audtube.htm

Dom
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Coyote
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Re: tube rolling virgin
Reply #4 - 12/03/21 at 05:15:23
 
Wow, this is all very good information and way to explore all this.
So I get that rectifier would be the way to go.
I get that I should get the amp first and "get a base line"
Excellent suggestion.
My OP was kind of thinking what should I ask deckward to throw in the box at the same time as he ships the amp. i think the answer is i am better looking for nos.
is there such thing as nos 270? or what should i look for?

Cheers all and thx for the links and suggestions.

a.
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My modest system:
SE84UFO2.(2).
Quad mono 303 (x2) + 33 + FM3.
Marantz 2235.
Schiit Mani.
Technic SL23.
Thorens TD160 MKII + SME III tonearm. Ortophon OM10.
Oppo CD/DVD.
Celestion Ditton 66 studio.
Lii F15 in Betsy type OB.
ATAUDIO 12TC Pure OCC.
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Coyote
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Posts: 182
Re: tube rolling virgin
Reply #5 - 12/06/21 at 00:24:59
 

Dominic,

That Brent Jessey web sit eis antique but wow the amount of information!
Thanks.

a.
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My modest system:
SE84UFO2.(2).
Quad mono 303 (x2) + 33 + FM3.
Marantz 2235.
Schiit Mani.
Technic SL23.
Thorens TD160 MKII + SME III tonearm. Ortophon OM10.
Oppo CD/DVD.
Celestion Ditton 66 studio.
Lii F15 in Betsy type OB.
ATAUDIO 12TC Pure OCC.
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