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DECWARE House Speakers (Read 27446 times)
Steve Deckert
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DECWARE House Speakers
11/18/21 at 04:19:45
 

This is a real time product development log of a possible hi dollar speaker that will only happen if after a year of listening to the final results we think it would be worth the trouble.  That is to say don't get your hopes up or start asking when you can get on the list, because that's not what this is about.  This is about seeing things happen behind the scenes as designs are made and tested and evaluated for their merit.


I call this one  The out of my comfort zone speaker.


Any guru worth his salt will tell you that what he knows is meaningless compared to what he doesn't know.  To that every now and then a good challenge is in order.  Since I can admit starting to grow biased towards single-driver speakers and speakers that are extremely simple, like our two-way designs that run the main woofer wide open and hang a single capacitor on the tweeter...  it's time to see if I can knock myself off of my own pedestal...

I'm going to become my own alter ego and see if we can come up with a lower efficiency crossover-laden 3-way loudspeaker design using the best parts I can find. Yup, you heard it right. What better way to keep yourself honest than to split your ego in two and have a real competition with yourself!

With lots of basking in single-driver bliss from Lii Audio, some of the drivers being $700.00 each, it's not going to be a fair fight unless we pull out all of the stops. The goal is to see if we can find a magic window where DECWARE and mainstream audio can cross... and we need some $30K speakers to find out.

You see the problem lies in the fact that mainstream audio speakers are about 84~88 dB sensitivity with multiple drivers and cross-over networks and that requires a lot of power to drive.  So my thought was simply this;  Using our 60 watt monos, the largest Decware amp made that retains the Decware sound and imaging, can I come up with a top-end hi-fi speaker that would reach my normal listening level with good headroom.  If so, it might be possible to exceed the performance we have currently enjoyed for so many years from our products using hi-efficiency speakers... it's a narrow window if it exists... I call it the overlap zone.

My focus here has been not so much about efficiency but to see if a three-way loudspeaker can out-perform any of our references over the past 20 years.  It's a real question.  Why?  Because when you listen to these types of speakers at the shows, they are never connected to a Decware amp, so you don't know what they really sound like.  I realize that most of 20-30K speakers that are 3 -way designs that I've heard at various shows are still a mystery until I hear them in my own room on our own amplification.

My biggest argument for efficient single-driver designs has been two fold - efficiency and speed.  Mainly having the speed be the same for all frequencies, top to bottom always seems like a good thing.  Certainly the bass is far faster than a hi-fi speaker in most cases.

Trading this even speed from a single driver design for faster speed in the mid range and treble, and slower speed in the bass, as will happen in a 3-way design, seems like a viable tradeoff so we're going to try it.  More fascinating to me is the "filter" as the combination of these drivers and crossovers will become one when compared to a single-driver design. Really this will be no different than designing and voicing an amplifier so that is how I intend to approach it.  I'll be listening to a baseline and then creating better ones until I can't make it sound any better.







The drivers for this holy-grail design are as follows:

ScanSpeak Revelator R2904/7000-09 Tweeter. - $345 ea.

Scanspeak Illuminator 12MU/8731T-00, 4" Midrange - $316 ea.

ScanSpeak 22W/8851T-00 8"Revelator Woofer - $360 ea.

The crossover design for this has already exceed a parts cost in excess of $500. (UPDATE $750.00 for caps and inductors only)



My only goal is to get this design loud enough to enjoy it with our 60 watt monos. So, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but I will be deliberately burning up the first watt into heat with an elaborate crossover network.  Unlike the rolling phase angle of a single driver that is what it is, with three drivers and some cleaver crossover work, it should be possible to take complete control over the phase angle of the drivers which means opens the possibility for a more precise sound stage and imaging.  And frankly, this seems like the only category where this approach can exceed the performance of our past references over the years... but we shall see.

The front baffle is being machined from solid aluminum to fit each driver with tapped screw holes. There will be grooves cut in the face to prevent surface standing waves. The speaker will be stand mounted. The stand will be part of the design. Some of the best sounding things in my collection over the years in the way of speaker cabinets have had challenging shapes, so expect to see some of that.

It shouldn't be hard to figure out that if it's successful, and it probably will be, that the price of a speaker to best our past references is going to be 5 figures and that alone is going to place our past references at the top of the value for the dollar making them the overall winners in this contest.

Again, my curiosity and focus with this project is to achieve I N S A N E imaging and hopefully a near perfect frequency balance that combines extreme resolution with a forgiving demeanor... gee that's not asking too much is it?

So with this little tease, you know what I'll be doing this winter.







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Re: Hard Core Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #1 - 11/18/21 at 13:33:47
 
I always been a fan of designing stands/bases into a speaker project.

If anyone can make multiple drivers work in a box, it be you. Good luck!

John
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AMC CD8b>XO3>Cambridge CXN2>ZDAC>ZBOX>braided silver/occ> Zrock2>CSP2+>SE84 milflex copper 25th>9AWG silver/copper braid>lii Crystal 10 in Huijgen cabinets. Ortofon 2M Black>JVC QL-F4/Otari MX5050B2>ZP3. Isolation. AC filtering. Room treatment.
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Re: Hard Core Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #2 - 11/18/21 at 17:14:34
 
Do you need the aluminum polished? I enjoy polishing things to a mirror finish.
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Re: Hard Core Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #3 - 11/19/21 at 03:14:32
 
"This is about seeing things happen behind the scenes as designs are made and tested and evaluated for their merit."

The fun part!
Thanks Steve, for including us. I enjoy these ride alongs on the process.
Brian
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #4 - 11/21/21 at 02:45:27
 
Quote:
The fun part!
Thanks Steve, for including us. I enjoy these ride alongs on the process.


The process is what teaches.  I have no idea what I'm about to learn... do you?   So, yea, why not share it!

This design is about high mass.  So starting from the ground up, lets have some high-mass threaded spikes that can support some real weight : )



Eight custom machined spikes... $$$




Here is one installed in the upside-down steel stand to make it easier to see.

And here is what the stand looks like right side up...



I had it made with the DECWARE LOUDSPEAKERS badge machined flush into the surface.  7/16" steel plate, no worries about being thick enough : )





With a lot of luck, I may be able to get the black base coat on the cabinets tomorrow...  They have been a lot more than I bargained for because of the shape.  The shape requires a lot of hand work getting the radius and round overs to look right.  It was good and then the bondo cured and shrunk leaving it wavy in places so I am having to redo it.

Crap I can barely lift them because they are so thick.  Actually I can barely lift the stand.  

I'm going for extreme focus and refinement which is what attracted to me to this driver compliment.  This reminds me of a time (27 years ago) when I knew a lot less than I do now, but still managed to turn Lonely Raven to stone in my listening room.  A lot of that was the room, but the cabinets I built for the speakers in that room were co-mass-layer damped with 76 internal braces that were placed using accelerometers on the cabinet walls to measure resonance at every frequency and at every location to find the hot spots.  The resulting cabinet was dead and it used a top of the line Scan Speak tweeter at the time. I know Lonely Raven remembers the experience...  well FWIW these new speakers will shame those things right under the rug... in fact I expect those original speakers will eventually take themselves out to the burn pile voluntarily out of humiliation... but at least they were built with great precision.

And the Zen TORII MONO's are beaming with anticipation : ). It will be good to see them have a purpose in life here in the Decware Listening Room where the low power stuff dominates.

- Steve











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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #5 - 11/27/21 at 02:12:35
 

Quote:
With a lot of luck, I may be able to get the black base coat on the cabinets tomorrow...


There are some things that I guess I'll remain naive about forever... like what I think I can accomplish in 24 hrs! Here we are at least a week later and I just finally got the base coat on the cabinets. Perhaps this is a good thing because if I somehow knew the prep was it was going to take 7 days instead of 1 day, I probably would have put the breaks on which could only lead to not getting myself into these situations which would lead to not experiencing the results - right?

It's this masochistic ignorance that drives me to do so many things, and then stubborn tenacity that makes me finish. I'm pretty sure this is the secret to DECWARE.

Actually, the remainder of this story is going to be another fine example of masochistic ignorance... because after all what is the fun in actually thinking something all the way through!

-Steve





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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #6 - 11/27/21 at 03:15:58
 

OK, Before we go on with this speaker design thread, it's time for some B A C K S T O R Y !!!

With all the attention that came with recent reviews and two Stereophile Class A ratings Decware is drawing the attention of a lot of new people. Because of this I have been pondering a way to better demo our Zen TORII Monoblocks to potential customers. The problem is this... everything in our listening room, some almost 20 pair of speakers that can be pulled for demo at any time are all basically high efficiency. There are really no stereotypical high end hifi speakers in the house that would need the TORII Monos to drive.

A customer who would be looking at our TORII MONO's would have something like Wilsons, Sonus Faber, Focals, Magico or Gamut... all five figure speakers with 86dB ave. sensitivity. When he or she comes here they won't be able to bring their speakers with, because they can't lift them.

Having a similar speaker here would give them some familiar territory and more confidence in the amps ability to drive their own speakers at home. As it is, hooking these 60 watt amps up to most of our speakers tells you very little because a 2.3 watt amplifier can drive them fine. I think you can get my drift here...

Problem is, buying any of the aforementioned speakers would only create conflict because -- why weren't they Decware speakers -- or why is Decware using Focal to demo with... are their own speakers not up to the task?  

SO I HAD THIS IDEA - lets come up with a speaker design using familiar components that would solve the problem without branding conflicts... and off I went.

I decided on the Scan speak driver compliment listed at the top of this thread because those particular drivers spoke to me during my online research and ScanSpeak was a favorite of mine some 30 years ago when I first got serious about speaker design but had not yet discovered 2.3 watts. As far as I can tell, this midrange is going to be unbeatable... when you look at the design of it and the materials.

As I was working out possibilities for cabinets and doing searches on the drivers to see what others have done, I ran into the most drop dead gorgeous speaker I think I have ever seen and it was actually using this exact driver compliment. Well the artist in me took over and stole all reason from this point forward.  It's a lot like falling in love with the worse possible women you could have ever picked...  if only during those moments you could have actually heard your higher self screaming at you "DON'T DO IT !"




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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #7 - 11/27/21 at 03:38:16
 
 
So I will plead in my own defense with exhibit A.

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I saw this with the machined aluminum baffles and I couldn't sleep. I mean look at them... and here is a speaker using my driver compliment that is unbranded and available for custom order for around $8K with the stands, shipping included.

This would really solve my dilemma... a brand-less speaker that we can have custom built-to-order with any brand we want on it...

Yea, if life could be that easy everyone would still be alive... right? (voice of reason)

Right.  But the lust and the curiosity and the price... It would actually cost me that much to make them myself if you factor in my time and this way I wouldn't have to do anything.  Hell if they were great I could order more : )

So I rationalized myself back to sleep night after night until I had a F-IT moment which means shit or get off the pot, so I just pulled the trigger on it.  In all honesty CURIOSITY WAS SO OVERWHELMING that I couldn't stand it.  

I knew that even if it didn't sound good, with those drivers I could make it sound good, and still wouldn't have to dick with making the stand and enclosure.  I mean we have 1000 amps on order, and every spare minute I have is training my QC replacement who I am excited to say is really KICKING ASS - he is so damn good that by the time he learns something he'll be deadly.

So feeling pretty proud of myself for potentially conquering this mountain in nearly a weeks time, I waited for delivery some months later.  Due to cost increases from current day events, I had to add more shipping funds to get it here which only added $2500 not including duties which were $400.  Now the 7K speaker with less than 2K shipping has turned into an over 11K speakers.






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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #8 - 11/27/21 at 04:42:34
 
 
The builders were very kind to include photos of the speaker in various stages of the build... and have so far been very good to work with.

They included this photo of the final product prior to it's being packed and shipped to us so I knew after it was too late to do anything about it that it wasn't going to look like the picture...




The picture above was taken during the crossover design phase that once I got past the high gloss baffle frankly scared me a bit...  

The speakers were completed and shipped.  Naturally they took some heavy damage including two deep knife marks in the top from customs inspections. These speakers had powder coated cabinets that were baked in an oven. There is no way to fix this except to repaint both cabinets.



I thought they did a great job of packing the speakers. This is before they left the manufacture.  Once I got them they had clearly been dropped several times.  In fact one of the crates had a completely crushed bottom.

I half expected this so despite the fact that both speaker cabinets had loose shit inside rolling around, I hooked them up for a quick listen.  I was stunned at what I heard.  I could tell the crossover was designed by testing and measuring rather than modeling because the time alignment was at another level. These things had a sickly huge and focused sound stage. It was unbelievable. Very encouraging all considered.

I couldn't get much farther however because of the loose stuff inside each cabinet rattling around on the bass notes and while the bass was gloriously musical it was somewhat slow, it had a lack of control that I have come to expect over the years.

Also the stands, like the baffle, were painted with high gloss clear coat that you might see from someone who painted their car in a barn... it looked really bad so time to take them apart and refinish the cabinets and stands so we can have something to demo.

The pictures of the stands earlier in this thread were after I re-painted them.  The high gloss / dirt finish was hideous unless you were in candle light, then it looked great.









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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #9 - 11/27/21 at 05:02:00
 


Once I had them dragged out into my well lit shop I realized the putty had shrunk on both cabinets.  Obviously if a customer were to see this during a demo with the light hitting it just right it would be an embarrassment... so it's going to take a bit more work than fixing the scratch on the top of the other cabinet.




This is like the moment when you find out the girl in the tight jeans has a bit more character naked...










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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #10 - 11/27/21 at 05:08:27
 

And then when I started to remove the drivers I saw this:  



You really can't make this shit up.

This is just a frame from a video I accidentally took when trying to take a picture in a traumatized state...

I had to fight a dark cloud that came over me in the shop... and I believe what got me through that moment was the amazement that it sounded so good when I previously tested it!  

I've been in this business long enough and seen enough to know at this point exactly what the score was and the good news is I wasn't going to have to build a cabinet from scratch : )





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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #11 - 11/27/21 at 05:31:38
 

They did come up with some very clever vibration dampening devices using double stick tape and stiff foam board. Actually pretty impressive as it is very inert. There were many of these all over the inside of the cabinet...sadly some of the double stick tape didn't stick to the inside of the enclosure walls as intended due to a lack of prep and sawdust.



Due to the heavy shipping impacts the crossover boards of which there are two -- each fastened from the front with two screws, came loose and without anything under them simply vibrated against the bottom of the cabinet during bass notes. It's hard to build things with shipping in mind because it hard to wrap your head around the actual abuse that will happen which actually suggests that the company or individuals involved with the production of this design have little experience with transport.

It's OK because the first many amplifiers I shipped back in the day were damaged until I learned what shippers really do to stuff and then packed it accordingly... not only packed it accordingly but had to build it accordingly.  90G of impact 10 times with no parts moving or stress fractures is what we roll with after having been burned many times in the beginning years.  









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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #12 - 11/27/21 at 06:00:45
 

Since the wood didn't match the original picture in finish shape or size and since to me that was the focal point on the original image, I beat it off with a hammer and then removed the aluminum baffle and ran it through my drum sander about forty times since aluminum against aluminum has no give each pass was fractions of a 1000th/inch.


click to enlarge


After running it through my drum sander I was able to remove the high gloss finish, restore the flatness to the panel and restore the perfectly straight brushing that I found so appealing in the original picture. I mean how cool is it to have an anodized aluminum baffle that is machined to the drivers? This is one of the many things that really impressed me about this particular cabinet design.  

So with a clean slate an ultra thin coat of flat lacquer we have that ultra-flat brushed look that we're looking for.  


click to enlarge


What is cool is that this is going onto what will be a 2 inch thick baltic birch plywood baffle for a total baffle thickness or nearly 2.75". Co-mass-layer dampened and severely high mass. The drivers will be connected to the .75 aluminum plate that is both screwed and glued to the remaining 2 inches of plywood.  

Having nearly a 3 inch thick heat generating baffle in an enclosure with sidewalls that continuously carry from 1.5 inch to  3.0 inches is just a very inert chunk of mass that will be a delight to listen to. The solidity will be exceptional. This is why the stand is so heavy. You can't have one without the other.  

To me, the whole design starts with the driver compliment and then a way to couple the drivers to the mass of the cabinet in way that makes wood screws seem like the serious disappointment they actually are... so seeing this even from the original picture I was so impressed I had to get one.  

As you can see there are machined slots in the face to break up the standing wave the appears on the face of the baffle of normal speakers.

















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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #13 - 11/27/21 at 06:16:30
 

To repair the carnage of ripping the hardwood frame off of the plywood cabinet... which was severe, I used polyurethane resin instead of putty. It's harder than wood and can make the cabinet better than it was before I beat it to death with the hammer...  I just masked it off and poured it on, letting gravity level the face.


click to enlarge


Hehe, I thought I was making some real ground at this point... in fact this was about the end of the first day when I thought I would be done.  Once I started to fill and prime and block out the cabinet is where the next 6 days went.


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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #14 - 11/27/21 at 06:28:46
 



It looked simple enough but this is actually the part as well as those damn radiuses that took 6 more days...  : )







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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #15 - 11/27/21 at 06:30:40
 

See this is why I was so attracted to having someone else do it ; )

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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #16 - 11/27/21 at 13:08:19
 
Steve,
Just think of the sanding as a Zen moment!
One takes the high points to meet the low points, gaining unity.
A small piece of perfection then spreads out and takes over the project!

Life starts out as a big mess and you take control of it and make it yours, such is your speaker project.

I polished a intake manifold for my plant manager a few years ago. When I started out the possibility of it turning out well was questionable. But I kept doing what was in front of me that day and eventually I achieved what I wanted from the project.



What you call your stubborn nature is your ability to take that little spot of perfection and make it bigger and bigger every day.

I can't wait to hear these speakers, they are going to be world beaters after you spread your perfection over them.

The bad thing about perfection is that it doesn't exist! But it sure is fun chasing it.

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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #17 - 11/27/21 at 19:00:43
 
The speaker in the photo Steve posted and labeled Exhibit A is one of - if not the - most beautiful I’ve ever seen.
I would love to see that same aesthetic offered in the Tube Tot speaker. Maybe a SE - special edition version.
I’d definitely pay more for that.
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #18 - 11/28/21 at 01:26:42
 
It is amazing what some people will pull. I often can not understand how they can have so little self respect.  

I hope it will go well from here.
Brian
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #19 - 12/04/21 at 01:38:40
 

The bottom of the speakers have threaded spikes, shown here:




The inserts for these spikes, shown still threaded on the spike, are too small for such a heavy speaker.  Consequently they ripped themselves out of the MDF bottom. Despite being made from birch plywood, the plywood cabinet is perpendicular as opposed to raked back.  That means that a false top and a false bottom were created to achieve the stance. Also the curved sides which are curved are all made from MDF.  That's not the end of the world, but it raised a few more red flags which I'll get to later.







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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #20 - 12/04/21 at 01:53:36
 



I am not a fan of dead air spaces in a speaker box because they resonate so I drilled two holes, one to inject expanding foam into and one to let the expanding foam out. This eliminates all the air in the chamber which then eliminates that resonation. Also it creates a composite structure that will eliminate movement of both panels.

The inside of the cabinet contains a sealed cavity for the midrange and tweeter that is separate from the main cavity for the woofer.  All cavities were full of EPDM foam insulation - which I like, however they were stuck to the interior cabinet surfaces with double stick tape.  Since I think I mentioned the interior surfaces had no prep and were full of sawdust, much of the tape did not stick.  What did stick left a gap behind the foam large enough to trap sawdust, which I frankly don't want inside the cabinet for a variety of reasons, mainly driver health.



Anyway with these little detours managed, it should be time to get on with the re-finishing.



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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #21 - 12/04/21 at 02:07:34
 

If you notice on the picture of the original design, the beautiful wood trim was fairly deep.  On the speakers I got the trim was vastly different. I realized I was going to have to add a 1/2 inch of additional plywood to the front baffle behind the 3/4 thick aluminum plate to get my pair to look like the originals.



Below you can see my cabinets with the aluminum removed.



Here is the added thickness I need.

 




No wonder it's taking me so long!




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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #22 - 12/04/21 at 02:18:10
 




I thought I was ready to continue on with the finishing and found another problem with one of the enclosures port duct.  The bottom of the duct had come unglued (which we know is impossible) and was loose so that when you knock on it you hear two boards clap together...  just like the crossover boards vibrating around in the bottom of the cabinet.  With some super glue and polyurethane resin I was able to fix it.  At the same time I rounded over the ends which meant getting the router out and making more finishing work on the rear.  Anyway, that narrow vertical slot is the port duct and I went with a 1/4 inch round over.



This is the part when you think you're almost done - and then for days you keep finding shadows and imperfections in the finish. Finally after just one more fix, I am ready to paint.
 




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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #23 - 12/04/21 at 02:49:57
 

I decided to go with a base coat / clear coat finish so that I could use a special low sheen clear coat. Here is the base coat applied to both speakers.




Sadly being an amateur with a spray gun, I rushed into things and due to a list of cumulative variables got a textured finish. It was very even, but still a texture. This is where I should have re-grouped and fixed my mistakes but for some reason I decided the clear coat would fix it. (I know, I'm embarrassed to hear myself say it too).

So this fancy clear coat was extra thick and even after the reducer and activator it felt heavy. Trouble building... Why I didn't try it on a test surface first...

There are no pictures of what happened next because frankly things got ugly. By the time I was done I had a pair of ultra textured cabinets that looked far worse than the base coat that I had to some how fix.

I had to sand both cabinets down to a dead smooth finish again, which meant fix all the places I went through the finish and re-seal those, then I started seeing even more defects that lead to another several days of shadows and putty and primer.

I decided I wasn't up for another attempt at the clear, so I purchased some single-stage hotrod black and tonight I finally got to shoot the first speaker after getting my gun dialed in. It came out much better. I'll find out tomorrow how much better and if I can do it again. I have to wait until it dries to lift this speaker off the rotating paint stand I made for it and I made only one stand so that I could only paint one speaker at a time which will cut sanding time in half should things go poorly. See I'm learning.

What I have learned so far, besides the obvious, is that high gloss is far easier to deal with because you can fix it.  Flat or Satin finishes have to be applied so evenly or they don't look even. Also, the sheen is determined by how wet each coat is and it's a recipe for tiger stripes. Also you can't sand or buff it like you can clear so if a bug lands in it...  You basically have to shoot the finished product without touching it. Great. Getting single-stage paint added even another level of panic knowing I had to do it in two medium wet coats, it had to cover and be even. Adding any more will increase the sheen.

My first attempt could have been easily defeated by a paint roller with latex house paint... Audio Gods help me. I'll try to think for myself, but perhaps you could run block for Father Murphy until I'm finished.








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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #24 - 12/04/21 at 03:06:33
 
The price of perfection is high!

I don't feel like the Lone Ranger anymore.
Sanding off all of the paint and starting over has been a long time Modus Operandi of mine.
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Reply #25 - 12/04/21 at 03:15:30
 
Watch this guy if you really want the paint to be perfect.

It is all in the polishing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEY-hyXkJKg
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Reply #26 - 12/05/21 at 02:27:03
 

I went out into the shop this morning to look at the first one I painted to see if the top was going to have to be re-shot and yes, it had a dry spot right down the center.  I'm really gaining a lot of respect for painters...

Anyway, I mixed up another batch of paint and sprayed the other cabinet, as well as another coat on the top of the first, and bang -- I think I nailed it.



silky perfection










I really couldn't be happier considering I'm not in a paint booth. Just as my mind thinks a lot about Bob Z., my woodworking guru, while I do wood working in my shop -- I think a lot about my high school pal Andy K. who turned into a world class painter, while I try to teach myself to paint. I've seen both do miracles so I know what's possible.

This just shows anyone can do it so long as they are willing to do it over until they get it right. The secret recipe is to be too stupid to know it's not going to go right the first time and too stubborn to admit it when it doesn't.













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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #27 - 12/05/21 at 02:52:38
 

Next step is to work on the wood trim.  From an artist's perspective when I look at exhibit A I see the speaker design is about two things; Shape and the wood trim.

This is why everything is Matt and Satin black and the exotic wood trim is high gloss piano finish.  I'm a little nervous about this part because it is the entire focal point of the speaker so it has to be really perfect like it is in exhibit A.

I have no idea what kind of wood they used originally on my cabinets, but I couldn't even see any grain.  I ordered some Peruvian Rosewood and not an ounce more than I needed which means no mistakes.
 


I've already cut it up into the profile I need and have been letting it acclimate to the shop for about a week after cutting it like you see it here.










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Reply #28 - 12/05/21 at 03:28:20
 
You are making the speakers look great!

Brian
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #29 - 12/05/21 at 04:37:32
 

The speakers have to look great, they have their own energy that demands it.  I believe it's call sacred geometry.  But, yes thank-you for the kind words. We will restore this pair to the glory of the pair in the picture that the original maker created only I suspect the interior execution will be far better than the original when we're done.  The crossovers are another chapter coming up soon.

Steve



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Reply #30 - 12/05/21 at 07:00:56
 
Steve,

I've read this thread twice but I'm still confused.  I take it that you saw these speakers and hoped they'd be speakers that you could maybe tweak and brand as Decware speakers.  So what happened?  What you received and paid a fortune for seem like crap -- at least the workmanship.  At this point are you just trying to see if they can be the model for a whole new build?  You're killing yourself to makeover this pair and I don't see this as a basis for the next pair -- if these turn out to be all you hope.

Or did I miss something?
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #31 - 12/05/21 at 14:24:13
 
I must admit those speakers look very good in exhibit A and after extensive rework of the pair you received, the result will be just as good looking and better.

That is what drives the do it yourself in us by obtaining something that appeals to us and finding fault then making it right.

Looking forward to the crossover work.

Smiley

John

For you Archie, a link to what info found on the web for the 'book shelf speakers'. I really do like the stands. Seems Steve did not have to mess with them!

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005002413466603.html?trace=wwwdetail2mobilesitede...
tail&_randl_currency=USD&_randl_shipto=US&src=google&aff_fcid=4609dd82a2a34282bc
bfee658692288b-1638712239828-00449-UneMJZVf&aff_fsk=UneMJZVf&aff_platform=aaf&sk
=UneMJZVf&aff_trace_key=4609dd82a2a34282bcbfee658692288b-1638712239828-00449-Une
MJZVf&terminal_id=a5084e0798f34404a6441e86688cdf51
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #32 - 12/05/21 at 16:09:20
 
Quote:
I've read this thread twice but I'm still confused.  I take it that you saw these speakers and hoped they'd be speakers that you could maybe tweak and brand as Decware speakers.  So what happened?  What you received and paid a fortune for seem like crap -- at least the workmanship.  At this point are you just trying to see if they can be the model for a whole new build?  You're killing yourself to makeover this pair and I don't see this as a basis for the next pair -- if these turn out to be all you hope.
Or did I miss something?


These speakers were offered to us already branded if we want them.  As you can see, the workmanship was not acceptable.  This satisfied my curiosity.  I now know that it would not be possible to have these speakers built by this company.  If it's not Bob Z., or my local wood worker, it's not going to happen.

So at this point, I am just trying to salvage the investment for my own personal pair which I can still use to demo our TORII MONO's.

Perhaps I will be so taken with the end result that when all is said and done I will consider manufacturing something similar.  Time will tell.



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Reply #33 - 12/05/21 at 17:10:14
 
This is DECWARE research and development. Steve shares the successes and learning experiences openly on the forums. The creative process can take a bunch of wild turns before the final product is finished or scrapped. The lessons learned from this adventure will benefit DECWARE products for years to come.

I really enjoy reading through Steve's development threads. It's also a great selling tool.
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Reply #34 - 12/05/21 at 18:07:25
 
Thanks Steve.  That's kind of what I thought then.  What a shame some people either can't see quality or think the customer can't.  Watching your process makes me appreciate my high gloss piano even more.
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #35 - 12/05/21 at 18:38:10
 
Quote:
For you Archie, a link to what info found on the web for the 'book shelf speakers'. I really do like the stands. Seems Steve did not have to mess with them!


I guess you never know until you try but I'm a weak stomached gambler!   Undecided

Those stands are really nice though.  When Steve first showed them I thought he designed and built them and I sort of just went, "Wow!".  My iron guy is good but he couldn't pull them off.
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #36 - 12/05/21 at 18:53:54
 
Fantastic thread Steve! This is what has made Decware products in a class by them selves and Steve a designer without peer. Amazing read, really amazing. All written while our Decware / Omega system is producing fantastic music. Thanks Steve.
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #37 - 12/08/21 at 02:35:47
 

Quote:
I really do like the stands. Seems Steve did not have to mess with them!


The stands are really nice.  A great design with a lot of mass and made from stainless steel.  The only thing I had to do to those was re-paint them.  They came with a high gloss finish full of defects/dirt.  With a good finish, the stands are easily worth a few grand by themselves.  

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Reply #38 - 12/08/21 at 02:48:01
 

I have constructed the solid Bolivian Rosewood frames and while I wait for clear coats to cure and before I get into the crossovers and other stuff, I want to say that a lot of effort went into building these speakers by the manufacturer before I got ahold of them and the design is very solid.  It's not a factory built speaker, like Focal for example, but rather just built one or two pair at a time. This pair was no doubt built with pride and I do not believe there was any lack of caring about the result. There were just a few mistakes along the way, and the poor paintwork and soldering undermines the quality. While not happy about it certainly, I have seen the actual shop when this pair was built and it's not the tiny dream shop that I have -- so on many levels the work was very impressive.  





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Reply #39 - 12/08/21 at 03:20:19
 

OK, so now is a good time to start work on the crossovers. Interestingly despite the estimated arrival date on January, the $700 worth of parts came in yesterday as if the Audio Gods had something to do with it...

The crossover was built on two boards that were screwed to the bottom of the cabinets interior.

Two boards because a single board the same shape would not fit through the speaker hole. On these two boards is the three way crossover, one board has the woofer and tweeter, the other board has the midrange.

I have also seen the process of this crossover being designed which was both encouraging and a little scary.  It was scary because there were two test leads for every part in this crossover connecting everything together on the carpet covering the entire floor of the listening room, with calibrated mics measuring the speakers.  With that many lossy connections and increased resistance it would have been tricky to factor that into the calculations which account for the encouraging part which was measuring each part in real time to see what actually happens vs. modeling it.  My kind of engineering actually.


Here is the crossover removed from the speaker.





They cared enough to paint the boards and use decent parts.  I have listening to this, as I mentioned before I took them apart and this was some of the best imaging I have ever heard.  This is the reason why I ordered all new parts and am building new crossovers from scratch, because you NEVER F'ING TAKE APART the reference until after you have beaten it.  As you can tell, this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.  I just don't do it.  Others do.

You might think that by getting better parts it will be of course better.  Possibly not.  Better parts are going to have lower DCR and scattered across the entire circuit would be changing the operation slightly or perhaps not so slightly when you listen to it.  Also layout is key.  The coils have to be laid out a certain way otherwise they change each others values, and will do it in real time based on frequency and amplitude albeit subtlety... we know there is no such thing as subtlety to the rapid audiophile.

For example, look at the following chart with respect to how to lay out coils and then look at this crossover...



 



There is a real danger that by "FIXING" this crossover with a better layout and superior parts it may not sound anything like the old one and of course we want that to be the case, but we want it to be better not worse which is to say we want the exact sound of the original but with even more refined performance.



Add to this the solder... these connections, some more than questionable and made with what looks like plumbing solder or recycled pure lead... could easily be affecting the sound, probably in a negative way but we shall see.  






All I know is that there will be an A/B comparison done between the original and the new crossover and if the new crossover doesn't sound better we will jack with it until it does, or put the old one back in with some better soldering and wire...  I am prepared to do that if it sounds better to me.









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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #40 - 12/08/21 at 03:34:44
 


With better coils, comes larger size which compounds the problem of layout. I was unable to find a way to get the tweeter components  in this space so I will be building a separate board for the tweeter crossover and mounting on standoffs 4 inches above the two you see here. The coils on that board will be laid out in 3D space so as not to couple with the ones below it.  

In the picture the board on the right is going to be the woofer and the board on the left is going to be the midrange.







The only things that matters with crossover layout is how you manage the magnetic fields of the coils. I just lay out the coils the way they have to be and then I'll work the rest out around that.   I have plans to make it pretty.  My concern will be wire lengths, and vibration.  I presently have them floating on a bed of silicon, but plan to possibly pour them into place with liquid rubber to damp out all the resonances.







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Reply #41 - 12/08/21 at 03:42:38
 

Some of these coils actually shunt to ground so they are not in series with the drivers.  This gave me pause because it seems like a decent opportunity to save some money on parts, and I think it is, however I realized that any inadequacies of the cheap parts ability to complete the shunt vs a better part will get reflected back to the coil in the driver itself and that will effect the sound. If the parts are matched across the board, this possibility is eliminated and since the theme of this speaker is extreme and it is used to demo amplifiers...



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Reply #42 - 12/08/21 at 04:05:07
 
"This pair was no doubt built with pride and I do not believe there was any lack of caring about the result. There were just a few mistakes along the way"

In that case, I apologize to the maker for my earlier unkind remarks. I spoke without knowing.

Brian
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #43 - 12/08/21 at 06:05:55
 
Quote:
"This pair was no doubt built with pride and I do not believe there was any lack of caring about the result. There were just a few mistakes along the way"

In that case, I apologize to the maker for my earlier unkind remarks. I spoke without knowing.


You're both way more generous than I am.  Given the original pictures and what Steve received, I'd call that a "bait and switch."  If sound is all that's important then there sure are better ways to go then a half-assed job at something nice.  This is an interesting thread but those guys need to give at least a 50% refund and an apology!
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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #44 - 12/08/21 at 09:46:03
 
Quote:
There were just a few mistakes along the way"


This is key here. I think when the speakers left the hands of the builder in good shape the trip to Decware was not forgiving and left it's mark for Steve's precision eraser.

Those crossovers look like something I came up at the turn of the century as far as component count. I think you will combine components in your listening sessions. I'll have to find some pictures of my abominations Smiley

John

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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #45 - 12/08/21 at 11:36:58
 
As you can see below the crossover is suspended in a tube buried in sand contained in the stand. The component count was trimmed down to 9 by another designer with better sound.






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Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.
Reply #46 - 12/08/21 at 17:39:49
 

Archie,

I'm not happy about it and don't worry it's not over yet.  I am being generous towards the builders, but not the sellers.  I think the original picture may even be a Computer Generated Model.  I will test the merit of their honor by asking them to change the ad by using pictures of the actual speakers they made me so that buyers can see what they will actually get. I know I would have passed.  Also, had the shipping been listed at $3500+ like it is now, I would have also passed.

If the speakers actually matched the pictures and the original price, I could have sold at minimum several pair a year which is a lot more than they will sell, so they cut their own foot off.  

Steve





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Reply #47 - 12/08/21 at 20:50:18
 
When your done they will be magnificent.  Our time is always a revelation though.  I had some exterior full-lite French doors that had rotted and given the price of new doors I decided to make my own out of 8/4 African Mahogany.  They came out beautiful and at half the price -- for materials and cutters.  If I add my week+ labor, forget it!  lol
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Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos..
Reply #48 - 12/12/21 at 03:08:12
 

When I'm done... it seems like it's never going to happen : )  

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Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos..
Reply #49 - 12/12/21 at 03:14:11
 



Left side is midrange crossover, right side is woofer crossover... in progress.







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