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Vinyl thatís better than streaming? (Read 3807 times)
thethanimal
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Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
07/20/21 at 19:51:45
 
When I started my audio journey I heard a top-end dCS digital system vs. a top-end Brinkmann/Audio Research analog system in a $400k room at HiFi Buys in Atlanta. Digital sounded fantastic but swapping to the vinyl suddenly made Muddy Waters appear before me.

These days I stream Tidal through a Bluesound Node into my SE84UFO 25th Mods and it sounds fantastic, so I borrowed a Technics 1200 with Stanton 500 (DJ cartridge) and started going through some old vinyl from my aunt. The sound was pretty consistently anemic on the low end on the vinyl, with nothing musically or holographically special compared to streaming. Only when pulling out new 180 gram pressings of Toolís ďLateralusĒ (heavy metal) or The Arcadian Wildís ďFinch in the PantryĒ (single center micíd bluegrass) did the sound quality equal streaming.

So what am I missing? Do I really have to spend $2,000+ on a vinyl rig to equal my $500 streaming DAC? And why does 180 gram vinyl make a difference?
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Archie
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Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #1 - 07/20/21 at 20:56:25
 
I'd suspect the cartridge is the problem more than the vinyl.  I don't find a difference with the heavy vinyl per se.  But I also do clamps and fluid damping on my arm.  However, IME vinyl won't ever be the lower cost approach.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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HockessinKid
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Posts: 893
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #2 - 07/20/21 at 22:09:16
 
Potential problems: worn stylus, cartridge is not set properly (vertical tracking force, vertical tracking angle, tonearm position too low or high), turntable is not level, cartridge and tonearm may not be a good match, also may be mismatch with cartridge and phono preamp (not enough output gain MC cartridge and MM preamp).

Playing vinyl is more involved and hands on. It can be a bit finicky but with the proper set up, it can sound glorious.

HK
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Dynavector 20x2 LO cart + Modwright PH 9.0X phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-A preamp > ZMA-A amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Omega SAHO XRS or Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables.
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Geno
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Without music, life
would be a mistake.

Posts: 1727
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #3 - 07/20/21 at 22:35:13
 
But, the question was, "Am I going to have to spend $2000 to get good analog sound?"

TT -                       $750 minimum
Cart/Stylus -          $200 MM min.
Phono pre -            $300 min.
Good phono cable - $150 min.

IMHO, these are minimum prices for decent vinyl sound.  

To get good quality vinyl sound, you will get to $2000 pretty quickly.
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SE84UFO + (SE84UFO on order) OR Sansui AU-222,AU-505,800,210
Cambr.Aud.CXN (ModWright) ē Cambr.Aud.CXC ē ZBIT
Technics SL-1210MK5 (KAB Mods)w/ Soundsm Aida MKll
Soundsm MMP3 phono pre
Otari MX5050 R2R
ZLC Pwr Cond
Lii Crystal 10 & W-15 in Open Baffles
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HockessinKid
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Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #4 - 07/20/21 at 23:16:02
 
Based on my experience, more like $5-6K.
HK
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Dynavector 20x2 LO cart + Modwright PH 9.0X phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-A preamp > ZMA-A amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Omega SAHO XRS or Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables.
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Geno
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Without music, life
would be a mistake.

Posts: 1727
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #5 - 07/21/21 at 00:13:25
 
Yep. Itís taken me about $3000 to be happy with mine. That was buying an older Technics 1210, getting it fully KAB modded, a used ZP3 that I had the mods done to, and an Ortofon/KAB cart. Nothing super fancy, and I was at $3000.
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SE84UFO + (SE84UFO on order) OR Sansui AU-222,AU-505,800,210
Cambr.Aud.CXN (ModWright) ē Cambr.Aud.CXC ē ZBIT
Technics SL-1210MK5 (KAB Mods)w/ Soundsm Aida MKll
Soundsm MMP3 phono pre
Otari MX5050 R2R
ZLC Pwr Cond
Lii Crystal 10 & W-15 in Open Baffles
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Archie
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Posts: 2731
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #6 - 07/21/21 at 02:47:55
 
Quote:
Based on my experience, more like $5-6K.
HK


Ditto +++ † Grin
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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4krow
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IMAGINE WHIRLLED
PEAS

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Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #7 - 07/21/21 at 14:55:01
 
 No doubt it is important to have decent equipment to use for playback, and it is fruitless to try and align a cartridge without a good protractor. So my question is, what method does you use for alignment, and what TT set up tools do you use? Anyone using Wally Tracer products?
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Decware 34I.3 integrated amp/Forte' 3 bass amp/Velodyne SMS-1 bass mngmnt system/Decware ZOB speakers/Audio Nirvana 8" bass drivers/Xiang Seng DAC/ LR Audio Computer/Rega Apollo R CDP/Emotiva ERC3 CDP/BPT 3.0 power cond.
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Archie
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Posts: 2731
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #8 - 07/21/21 at 16:11:14
 
The Technics 1200 TTs come with a little jig that you mount the HS into and then you just set the overhang and side to side alignment. †It takes about 2 minutes.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Coyote
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Posts: 146
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #9 - 07/26/21 at 16:11:18
 
Well, when it arrives, †I am planning to plug my old TT directly into my newly acquired SE84UFO with some Lii OB speakers with current Ditton 66 for comparison and go from there!

Maybe I am going to be disappointed on the analog side of the system but the TT was sounding pretty nice 40 years ago when it was last spinning.

:-)


a.
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Dana
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Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #10 - 07/26/21 at 16:39:10
 
Not sure that will work.  You'll need a phono preamp.
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Tom Waits:
And the newspapers were fooling,
And the ash-trays have retired
'Cause the piano has been drinking,
The piano has been drinking
The piano has been drinking,
Not me, not me, not me, not me, not me
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Bilyeaux
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Posts: 97
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #11 - 07/28/21 at 21:09:41
 
Dana is correnct your phono stage or pre with phono would connect to amp. Schitt has a nice inexpensive mm or mc phono.
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PS Audio GCD & UFO2 & S300, P300 Regen, Rega P6 w/ NEO and Rega MM Phono, Marantz CD6006, Bluesound Node 2i, Nakamitchi Cassette, Syzygy Sub, Omega JR XRS Towers & 74' Heresy rebuilt from Crites, Underwood Cables/Cords, AQ connects
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Coyote
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Posts: 146
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #12 - 08/01/21 at 16:02:26
 
Hi Dana, Bilyeaux,

Thank you both for the comments.

You might very well be right and I have a little re$erve for that eventuality but I am hoping not having to put anything between the TT and the SET.

I shall know the answer to this question in less than a year! Wink

a.
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Lon
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Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #13 - 08/01/21 at 17:36:13
 
Unless your turntable has a built-in phono preamplifier (a few do, but even fewer of a good quality) you will need "something" between the turntable and the amplifier. If your turntable is without a built-in phono preamplifier you might as well be prepared in the meantime--you will need to procure one. That's how phono playback works.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls; Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Or
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Bilyeaux
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Posts: 97
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #14 - 08/02/21 at 14:14:20
 
Dana is correnct your phono stage or pre with phono would connect to amp. Schitt has a nice inexpensive mm or mc phono.
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PS Audio GCD & UFO2 & S300, P300 Regen, Rega P6 w/ NEO and Rega MM Phono, Marantz CD6006, Bluesound Node 2i, Nakamitchi Cassette, Syzygy Sub, Omega JR XRS Towers & 74' Heresy rebuilt from Crites, Underwood Cables/Cords, AQ connects
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Bilyeaux
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Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #15 - 08/02/21 at 14:16:53
 
Sorry thought i forgot to send!
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PS Audio GCD & UFO2 & S300, P300 Regen, Rega P6 w/ NEO and Rega MM Phono, Marantz CD6006, Bluesound Node 2i, Nakamitchi Cassette, Syzygy Sub, Omega JR XRS Towers & 74' Heresy rebuilt from Crites, Underwood Cables/Cords, AQ connects
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EdwardT
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Posts: 295
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #16 - 08/02/21 at 15:31:59
 
Records are equalized with a curve proscribed by the RIAA and without a preamp you wonít have adequate bass response. Itís how the industry keeps the stylus from leaping out of the groove which is a desirable outcome.
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CSP3, DIY Gr-Research X-SLS, Marantz HD CD-1, Modi+ DAC, GR Research 16 strand speaker cable, Pine Tree Audio SE2B, Pine Tree Audio BlackGround XLR interconnects, Schiit Vidar mono blocks
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Coyote
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Posts: 146
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #17 - 08/02/21 at 18:57:38
 

Thank you all,

I think the graph from EdwardT drives the stake through my hopes.
I might have to start looking at phone amps...

Mind you a lingering thought is that I was using this TT with an Ortofon OMS 10 for years connected directly to a Marantz 2240 for years (decades ago)?

Cheers,

a.
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Lon
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worthless!"
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Posts: 20361
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #18 - 08/02/21 at 20:01:31
 
Well, the Marantz 2240 is a receiver with a built in phono preamp circuit. No such circuilt will be in the Zen amp.

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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls; Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Or
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Archie
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Posts: 2731
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #19 - 08/02/21 at 20:28:34
 
I'm pretty sure you can still get a decent phono stage for $100.  When I started out with Decware I thought the phone stage was where to start but Steve told me my weak link was my amp.  So, if you're good in that department a lower cost phono stage may not hold you back much.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Coyote
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Posts: 146
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #20 - 08/02/21 at 21:10:28
 

Thanks Archie,

I am going to start researching phono amp.

Cheers,

a.
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Coyote
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Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #21 - 08/02/21 at 23:09:16
 
Greetings all,


Archie, thank you for the comment and suggestion...
It just gave me this crazy idea about a pre-amp "solution".

The thing is, I know myself, if I jump into the phono amp rabbit hole I will try to purchase "the best I can".

With all the gears I am buying at the moment that would not be very much I might actually go and buy a $100 phono amp "in the mean time" and never really be happy with it.

BUT

I have here in my hands a Quad 33 pre-amp.

(https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/quad/33.shtml)

How much of a HiFi sacrilege would it be to use that in front of the TT "for the time being"? Even perhaps throwing $100 in upgrades at the Q33.
(I have a complete Quad system that is going to a different room and the Q33 would go back there later-on, so would be happy for the upgrade).

Or would I still be better with a modern $100.00 phono amp?

Next upgrade being likely in 12-18 months, in order for some time to replenish the HiFi kitty. while other projects are tugging at my bank account.

Cheers,


a.
"What drawn me to HiFi is the inconvenience and the extravagant costs."

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Archie
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Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #22 - 08/02/21 at 23:16:50
 
I'm not 100% sure what that is but it seems to say it takes a TT input so I assume it is a phono stage. †If you have it, use it! †I have an NAD PP2 that I've put in when my ZP3 had to go for service and it was pretty good.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 20361
Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #23 - 08/03/21 at 02:02:09
 
That Quad preamp should do a very good job better than a modern 100 dollar phono preamp.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls; Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Or
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Waxspinner
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Re: Vinyl thatís better than streaming?
Reply #24 - 08/29/22 at 22:12:02
 
You're not missing anything. Stay in your digital world, blissfully and financially better off.

OR, you can spend the money and find out what you found out regarding ss vs tubes. Tubes and vinyl win.
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