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ZROCK with integrated amplifier (Read 2307 times)
Goga
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ZROCK with integrated amplifier
05/28/21 at 17:11:55
 
Hi,

I'm new to this forum and to the Decware gear in general.

I'm wondering what would be my options to connect ZROCK to an integrated amplifier.

My amplifier is Accuphase e-470 with 2 internal optional cards: DAC and Phono. I would like to be able to use ZROCK on all inputs and also for DAC and Phono cards.

From what I read and understand there 2 options in my case:
1. Use the Tape Recorder out -> ZROCK -> Tape Recorder In
2. Use Pre-out -> ZROCK -> Power IN (My integrated can be used as a preamp or power amp or both)

My questions are:
1. What are the pros and cons of each options mentioned above?
2. If I go with the option 2 above the input impedance on my power-in section is 20k and from what I read it needs to be 24k or above. Will it work in my case?

Thanks!
 
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Edsonic
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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #1 - 05/29/21 at 01:32:19
 
- Response is under revision. -

The info on the Zrock page and in the Zrock manual say different things. I likely misspoke on a few things.

But in any case there is no requirement that the amplifier have 24Kohms input impedance. The Zrock output impedance is <1,000 ohms, so 20Kohms amplifier input is twice the minimum requirement of 10X impedance ratio.
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Edsonic
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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #2 - 05/29/21 at 06:27:25
 
Hello again.

To address the questions in the OP: using the tape loop (option 1), the tape-out (Rec) bypasses the the volume control, so then, e.g., the 2V or 4V signal from a DAC would essentially go through the tape-out "as is," thence the Zrock input. The Zrock manual states a max input of 4V, so that should work. (Phono, radio, etc. would be lower output than any DAC.) Then of course the output of the Zrock returns to the preamp via the tape input (Play).

This method places the Zrock between the source and the preamp, and the volume is used as normally, to control signal level to the amplifier.

Option 2 places the Zrock between the preamp and amplifier, so the preamp volume now controls signal level to the Zrock. Once the Zrock settings are where you like, the volume still functionally controls level to the amplifier, albeit indirectly.

All input/output impedance ratios are well within bounds using either method.

Read the posts below for discussion  of "where in the chain."

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Goga
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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #3 - 05/29/21 at 14:50:24
 
Hi,

Thanks for taking time and answering my questions. It confirms my findings that the tape loop should work in my case. I’ll keep reading the forum as suggested.

Thanks again!
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Edsonic
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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #4 - 05/30/21 at 01:50:01
 
I think tape loop method would be the better choice in this situation. Decware recommends placing the Zrock between source and preamp, I think primarily for concern of overloading tthe Zrock with > 4V from a preamp. But those who use the Zrock after the preamp are aware of this and adjust all different output and volume / gain controls accordingly.
.
In that matter, with the amplifier being permanently set at max gain (as being the case in an integrated), and the Accuphase being rated at 180 watts, it actually makes it less likely you would overload the Zrock from the preamp (with out getting tremendously loud). So you could try both methods with out much worry.

That said, I personally would not be comfortable having final volume control as input to the Zrock, nor having input to the Zrock being variable, for a variety of reasons.

But that's just me.
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DancingSea
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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #5 - 07/06/21 at 03:42:16
 
I have the Marantz Model 30 integrated that also has a tape loop.  I'm on the waitlist for the ZR2.  However, I do have a ZBox.  When I put the ZBox between my source (Marantz SACD 30n) and the integrated, sound flows normally.  When I put the ZBox in the tape loop, no sound came through.  I triple checked to make sure the ins and outs were correct.

I put the amp on the "recorder" input selection for listening.  Is that right?

The Marantz manual doesn't say much about such a situation.

Is there any reason why the ZBox wouldn't work in the tape loop?  Do EQ's and or tube buffers normally work in tape loops?  I have zero experience with such things.  Thx
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Edsonic
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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #6 - 07/09/21 at 15:28:38
 
The issue is that the Marantz Model 30 does not have a "tape monitor" (or "record monitor") function, so in fact there is no tape -loop-, in the proper sense of the term. You can record a selected source, but you can't monitor the output of the recorder (or other device) at the same time. As it stands, the only way to access output from the recorder (or the ZBOX or ZR2) is to select it as a source, -which then disconnects whatever source you were sending out to it-. You can't hear your ZBOX because there is no signal at its input. That's the reason for the "monitor" function in the first place. Somebody at Marantz didn't fully grasp the concept of tape loop. Especially the loop part.

You could connect "pre out" to the input of the ZROCK (or your ZBOX in the meantime) and then the output of that box to "amp in," but I think using a multi-input switch box in front of the ZBOX / ZROCK would be a better solution. I'm assuming you will be using more than one source.

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Dominick
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Still like that old
time Rock and Roll!!

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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #7 - 07/09/21 at 22:16:38
 
Take a look at the Decware ZSB switch box.  It has 4 separately selectable analog inputs and dual analog outputs.  It’s a great device for the price.  

I use it to send the analog signal from my DAC into my preamp, and the spare output signal to my subwoofer. For your scenario you could use the 2nd set of outputs to act as your monitored signal.  What’s nice is that you can also run it backwards, and or even piggy back them.  Here is the link…

https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZSB.html

Dom

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iMac 7, Google CCA/Raspberry Pi 4, Schiit Bifrost True Multibit DAC, My Audio Cables [MAC] Ultra Silver+ Cables, ZSB, ZSTAGE [Beeswax Caps], DAG Cables, DHC1, Torii MKIV w/25th Ann. mods, Reg P3 Turntable, Velodyne Dual Firing Sub, ERR Radials [Bubbinga Wood].
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Edsonic
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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #8 - 07/10/21 at 12:55:57
 
Quote:
I use it to send the analog signal from my DAC into my preamp, and the spare output signal to my subwoofer. For your scenario you could use the 2nd set of outputs to act as your monitored signal.


Why would he need a separate 'monitored signal' from the second output when it's already coming into the preamp via the first output, just as you describe in your first sentence?

In any case I should point out to DS that in this set-up the preamp source selector would always be set to "line in 1" (where the output of the ZSB would be plugged in), all source selection now accessed via that box.

My mind is still swirling in amazement that somebody made a receiver with tape in and out, but no monitor function.

That's a new one on me.
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Dominick
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Still like that old
time Rock and Roll!!

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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #9 - 07/11/21 at 03:10:26
 
Quote:
Why would he need a separate 'monitored signal' from the second output when it's already coming into the preamp via the first output, just as you describe in your first sentence?


After going back and rereading his post, I had misread his objective.  In any case the ZSB would be an added benefit.  

Dom
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iMac 7, Google CCA/Raspberry Pi 4, Schiit Bifrost True Multibit DAC, My Audio Cables [MAC] Ultra Silver+ Cables, ZSB, ZSTAGE [Beeswax Caps], DAG Cables, DHC1, Torii MKIV w/25th Ann. mods, Reg P3 Turntable, Velodyne Dual Firing Sub, ERR Radials [Bubbinga Wood].
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Edsonic
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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #10 - 07/11/21 at 04:22:02
 
I agree. When I finally get  a system cobbled together the ZSB will likely be a part of it, enabling use of the ZR2 for 2-3 sources. All internal wiring and switch contacts are silver already, and I'll have silver cables, so I'll certainly opt for the silver jacks.

Once I have everything else nailed down I'll decide if I want the volume control or not.

By the way, thank you for your review and follow-on commentary about your recently arrived Torii MK IV. It's really helpful that you went beyond "Sounds great!" and went into some useful detail as to what it did so well. Posts like that are a great help in narrowing down choices.
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chapsjon
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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #11 - 07/12/21 at 04:35:12
 
Since I have both a mini torii and Accuphase e-303, I am wondering what specifically you are looking for in adding the zrock to your Accuphase? Especially since it (or at least mine) already has great tone controls?

I do have a zbox and I have used it between my CD player and the Accuphase. I never found the need to warm up other sources though, so I am unsure I would want to run everything through the zbox as you are asking about the zrock. The Accuphase sounds great, as does my mini torii. I fully enjoy both.
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SE84C+ or Accuphase E-303•ZP1 phono pre
Technics SL-1200MK3D w/ Grace F-8 & Nagaoka MP-110 carts
KEF Reference 101, Sony SS-AL3 speakers
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Dominick
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Still like that old
time Rock and Roll!!

Posts: 626
Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #12 - 07/13/21 at 03:22:38
 
Quote:
By the way, thank you for your review and follow-on commentary about your recently arrived Torii MK IV. It's really helpful that you went beyond "Sounds great!" and went into some useful detail as to what it did so well. Posts like that are a great help in narrowing down choices.


Your welcome and I’m glad you found it useful.  Keep in mind that when I went to Decfest a few years ago, Steve featured the SE84UFO25.  I fell in love with that amp, and also heard the ZMA…which was also breathtaking.  When I went back and reevaluated my needs and listening room… It was determined that the little Zen amp could possibly run out of steam with my ERR speakers.  The Torii was a better fit and I bought it sight unseen.  I have been blown away with this amp, and am totally happy with my choice.  Point being is that there is no bad amp choice with the Decware lineup….it just depends on your needs and a few other personal requirements that you need to evaluate… like room size, your listening levels, speaker efficiency, if there are any room treatments, and overall objective.  Since I wanted my amp to run double duty for TV/movies, I wanted to make sure I had enough headroom if I want to crank things up.

Dom
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iMac 7, Google CCA/Raspberry Pi 4, Schiit Bifrost True Multibit DAC, My Audio Cables [MAC] Ultra Silver+ Cables, ZSB, ZSTAGE [Beeswax Caps], DAG Cables, DHC1, Torii MKIV w/25th Ann. mods, Reg P3 Turntable, Velodyne Dual Firing Sub, ERR Radials [Bubbinga Wood].
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DancingSea
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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #13 - 07/13/21 at 04:43:20
 
Thanks to all for the insight.
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Edsonic
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Re: ZROCK with integrated amplifier
Reply #14 - 07/16/21 at 12:37:08
 
I said:

Quote:
In any case I should point out to DS that in this set-up the preamp source selector would always be set to "line in 1" (where the output of the ZSB would be plugged in), all source selection now accessed via that box.


Sorry to confuse the situation as I did above, but . . .  The discussion was about how to fit in the ZR2 when there is no tape/processor loop available. The chain therefore would be:  sources > ZSB > ZR2 > "line in 1".
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