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annoying tube rattle (Read 4095 times)
qaztar
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annoying tube rattle
02/24/21 at 15:04:14
 
I purchased a couple of Psvane 5U4G rectifiers from Grant Fidelity late last year. I’ve had a few pairs of under $50 rectifiers (5U4’s, 5A4’s and 5Y3GT’s; most NOS) and felt the new production Psvanes were pretty decent in terms of the qualities I’m looking for in my Torii mk3. Unfortunately one of the two developed a continuous "rattle or buzz" a couple weeks back (similar to the sound I consider normal at tube power up due to metal expansion, but only on a momentary basis).

Though barely perceptible from a listening distance of about 10 feet, electrically I wonder if this could present an issue for connected components. I'm not hearing distortion on the channel its installed in. It doesn’t get better with a firm tap or two. It will also follow the tube over to my CSP3. Visual inspection doesn't reveal anything.

I went to the Grant Fidelity site to ask them about it but I see they had a falling out with Psvane and discontinued all their products earlier this month, so I didn't pursue it any further. I always read of catastrophic rectifier failures at power up -- but has anybody experienced something similar to what I have? Prelude to catastrophe? I did replace both tubes with backups, but sacrificed some sonic qualities in doing so.
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Mac Air (Roon core) | Torus RM 15 | iFi Zen Stream w/ Elite PS | HoloAudio May KTE DAC | Allnic L-8000 pre | SE84UFO25 w/Vcap PA or McIntosh PA | various cables & cords (TWL, MIT) | Coherent Audio 15 Signature speakers
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CAJames
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #1 - 02/24/21 at 19:38:58
 
I've never had a catastrophic rectifier failure, but then I only use NOS rectifiers. IMO any tube that is making a rattle or buzz ought to be replaced.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
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Doug
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #2 - 02/24/21 at 20:16:45
 
Way back when Cary 2a3 mono blocks anchored my system, I ran Sophia 2.5 volt 300B’s for several years.  When they were brand new there was a substantially amount of buzzing, rattling, vibrating going on inside both of these huge power tubes.  Richard, at Sophia, told me that the noise would eventually subside, and he was right.  After hundreds of hours.......maybe even more than a thousand hours......it completely disappeared.  

I’ve seen many catastrophic NOS rectifier tubes fail, in those same Cary amps, but none of those failures were preceded by a physically noisy tube.  Hope it all all ends well here!
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CAJames
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #3 - 02/24/21 at 20:39:09
 
Quote:
Posted by: Doug      Posted on: Today at 20:16:45
... When they were brand new there was a substantially amount of buzzing, rattling, vibrating going on inside both of these huge power tubes... After hundreds of hours.......maybe even more than a thousand hours......it completely disappeared.  


Yes, new tubes often need time to break in, although you're a much better man than I if you can wait a thousand hours, but I digress. That is different than developing noise after they have been in service for awhile. But that's JMO/FWIW/YMMV.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Doug
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #4 - 02/25/21 at 00:55:14
 
Ahhhh.....didn’t catch the fact that the questionable tube has been quietly working for a couple of months.
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Jay’s CD2T-Mk3
Denafrips Pontus II
ZROCK2 25th Mods
CSP3 25th & Custom Mods
PAP Quintets with Voxativ 1.6
First Watt J2 or Cary 300SEI
driving Voxativs—no crossover
LFD NCSE driving 15” Woofers
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qaztar
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #5 - 02/25/21 at 13:59:58
 
Thanks for the feedback. At this point I can’t really separate the associated power transformer from the problem as it obviously closely interacts and is physically close. If I had to guess: it’s 60 Hz mechanical vibration with harmonic changes occurring as the transformer slowly warms up (noticed this last night). I think I’ll try baking the tube in the CSP3 for a few days (with expendable signal tubes vs $$$) and see what happens. After that, probably not worth dealing with anymore.
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Mac Air (Roon core) | Torus RM 15 | iFi Zen Stream w/ Elite PS | HoloAudio May KTE DAC | Allnic L-8000 pre | SE84UFO25 w/Vcap PA or McIntosh PA | various cables & cords (TWL, MIT) | Coherent Audio 15 Signature speakers
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will
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #6 - 02/25/21 at 16:25:05
 
I have noticed some rectifiers effect transformer hum more than others,  including ones that do not have noticeable self noise.

Also I have had a number of rectifiers short in Decware amps over quite a few years, without noticeable trauma to anything but the failed rectifier and the IEC fuse.

Interesting noticing the transformer interaction. And whether the tube, or both transformer and tube, even if not that noticeable at 10 feet, seems to me that being able to hear it that far away, it is pretty intense.

And being noisy, being the beginning of the power especially for that channel, I suspect you are getting sound degradation even if it is not obvious distortion.

Part of why I am guessing this... I used to have pretty irritating transformer hum, especially with some rectifiers, and started by reducing physical vibration at the transformers.... making sure all bolts were tight; using herbie's sonic stabilizers on top with a piece of flagstone weighting and bridging them across the Torii input transformers; placing small, but powerful square magnets on the transformers, numbers used and location determined by sound....

And the sound got better and better, vibration improvements resulting in somewhat subtle, but pretty noticeable sonic improvements.

This led me to more official damping. After a number of experiments, I ended up liking the pretty transparent effects from small strips (±1/8 x 3/4) of stick-on EAR SD-40AL damping material on the sides just up from the transformer bases. This also helped some with transformer hum, but more noticeable and welcome was the improvement in resolution... more micro information and smooth musicality the fine detail and space enhancement supported.

I don't recall experiencing this fairly abrupt onset of rectifier mechanical noise coming later in the tube's life, so can't comment from experience on the future outcome. But I am tending to agree with CAJames. For me too, when a tube starts making noise late in life, seems most times it is on the way out.

My thought is that I don't like irritation from hum/noise, but as much, I suspect it is negatively effecting your sound on subtler levels....So I would be inclined to give up on the noisy tube and maybe see if you can find synergy using the good one in the CSP3 with another pair that is complimentary in the Torii.

Don't know specifically which rectifiers you have. But if you let us know make/type/vintage specifics, as well as what you like about the Psvanes, and comparatively, what you might want to sound different about the others... some of us have used a lot of rectifiers and may be able to help you get closer to your preferred sound with an alternate to the Psvanes.


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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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HockessinKid
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #7 - 02/25/21 at 19:25:09
 
Hi Will,

Where did you source your EAR products from? Looks like Michael Percy Audio sells the SD-40 and SD-125. I've got the slightest of hum on my ZMA transformers. The SD-40 might be helpful, but other websites of the product only show it it colors white and blue. Yuck!

HK
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Audio Technica AT-OC9XML cart + Modwright PH 9.0XT phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-25th Ann. preamp > ZMA-25th Ann. amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables
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will
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #8 - 02/25/21 at 20:52:36
 
Hey HK,

I got mine from Michael Percy, the thicker foiled version of SD-40AL. This was what was recommended by some experienced folks I was following doing DAC modifications, thought to be unusually transparent and neutral sounding damping material. And the thickness and aluminum of the version are bound to effect sound, so I can't say from experience what the others might sound like.

But I can say that the sizes I used on Decware transformers, and low placement, it was not a big visual imposition (to me anyway). On the Torii input transformers, being low and around the sides, it is mostly hidden from sight. And on the outputs, where one damping strip faces front, it is mostly hidden by power tubes. With the CSP3, low and off to the sides, I can see it, but it seems pretty low key, and I was careful to cut and place it to look at least somewhat like it was meant to be there.

In the case of the DAC, it was designed to be pretty solid and vibration/noise free, so I used mostly small pieces sized by sound on caps, diodes, and a few board-to-connectors, and board-to-case. Damping materials usually effecting some frequencies more than others, I agreed the SD-40AL material, if not overdone, can be quite nicely transparent. But I did "keep an ear on it" to keep from overdamping. As I recall, at some point the whole sound has a more refined, smoother feel, while clarifying fine detail top to bottom. And with more damping, it could become overly smooth, unbalanced, and duller, losing the fine stuff.

If you do it something like I did, it may not solve hearing mechanical transformer hum, but I think it might help. And to me sonic improvements from careful treatment on the Torii and CSP3 made a 9 x 12 sheet worth it... I was in highly tuned serious listening mode, in the thick of modifications, so hearing everything, but I was impressed at how much it refined my sound.

And to me it is nice to have it around, over time finding new places to use it.

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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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will
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #9 - 02/25/21 at 21:05:45
 
PS: I just tried an Office Depot version of a black Sharpie on the EAR material, and it holds well and makes it blend more.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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HockessinKid
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #10 - 02/25/21 at 23:49:30
 
Many thanks as always Will.

HK
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Audio Technica AT-OC9XML cart + Modwright PH 9.0XT phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-25th Ann. preamp > ZMA-25th Ann. amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables
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qaztar
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #11 - 02/26/21 at 01:04:11
 
Will, great info on the EAR material, will definitely keep that in mind. However, it looks like it turned out to be something else. After giving the tube a good bake I double tapped it from different directions and it suddenly went quiet as a clam... I suspect the mica spacer had changed position over time with the nubs acting as a form of audio transducer against the glass. Perhaps what I was hearing was the transformer changing characteristics as it heated up, and then continuing when it was at full temp. Tapping the tube while it was really hot might of allowed the mica to settle back into a more amiable position. In any case, hopefully problem solved, and happy listening!
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Mac Air (Roon core) | Torus RM 15 | iFi Zen Stream w/ Elite PS | HoloAudio May KTE DAC | Allnic L-8000 pre | SE84UFO25 w/Vcap PA or McIntosh PA | various cables & cords (TWL, MIT) | Coherent Audio 15 Signature speakers
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will
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #12 - 02/26/21 at 02:09:36
 
HK, you are welcome. If you give it a try, I hope it helps.


And great news qaztar. I hope it is a long term, or at least repeatable fix! I put in a new (to me) pair of 6SN7GTs the other day, and one tube was pretty rackety during warm up, but then sounded good. I tried some gentle tapping a few times and now it makes only one little pop as it engages. I hope it keeps improving because it is a good sounding pair to me!

It always amazes me how lively tubes are!
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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qaztar
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Re: annoying tube rattle
Reply #13 - 02/26/21 at 17:53:24
 
Well, to conclude... I powered the CSP3 up today and the 'rattle' returned but not as loud. After transformer warm up I was able to reduce noise with a light tap, but not eliminate. While boxing up the two rectifiers I noticed the spacer disk in the 'good' one visually flat, but in the 'bad' one it appears a bit warped in spots. Maybe that's the reason, but perhaps not. In any case ... best be on to better things.
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Mac Air (Roon core) | Torus RM 15 | iFi Zen Stream w/ Elite PS | HoloAudio May KTE DAC | Allnic L-8000 pre | SE84UFO25 w/Vcap PA or McIntosh PA | various cables & cords (TWL, MIT) | Coherent Audio 15 Signature speakers
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