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Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod (Read 12165 times)
BJF
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Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
02/13/21 at 15:26:53
 
I have a super Zen Triod on order. Also, I have ordered Omega Alnico compact monitors. I wonder if people can help me choose a sub $1000 DAC that works well with this amp. I listen to folk music, so vocals and acoustic instruments are important. Maybe something neutral sounding? These are the DACs I'm considering:

Schiit Frostbite
Burson Composer
SMSL M400
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hdrider
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #1 - 02/13/21 at 15:53:23
 
BJF - Welcome to the forum and to Decware. We have a Bitfrost feeding our CSP3 into our Rachael amp, works great good sounding DAC. I originally had a Krell DAC feeding my 2 watt Zen SE84CS. Not familiar with the other two DAC's you list, but you should get some good info from this forum. I also have Omega's so I think you are in store for a great system when it all comes together. Please keep us posted on your progress, this forum is an amazing collection of music lovers, gear head and all round stand up peeps. Happy listening, Chris.
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Donnie
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #2 - 02/13/21 at 15:57:20
 
Just buy one of these and be way ahead of the game.

https://www.denafrips.com/ares#:~:text=The%20Ares%20DAC%20is%20a,suitable%20arch....

Trust me, I'm a professional.
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HockessinKid
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #3 - 02/13/21 at 16:03:25
 
What will you be hooking up to the DAC? A PC/Mac or other sources? WiFi or ethernet connections to the PC or Mac? What kind of cabling from source to the DAC - USB, digital, etc? This will help us cull the field a bit.

HK
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CAJames
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #4 - 02/13/21 at 16:10:30
 
You didn't say which media you use for music. I want to like Schiit for a lot of reasons, not least of which is they set up shop in my home town. But they have a thing against DSD which makes their DACs a no go for me. If playing DSD files (either downloads or RIPs from SACDs) is part of your repertoire then I would look elsewhere, but if not they make excellent gear.
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BJF
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #5 - 02/13/21 at 17:32:30
 
Thank you everyone for the warm welcome and all the helpful responses. I really appreciate the help.I'm a newbie and tend to not provide enough information in my posts. I'll work on that.

I use Apple products, so I'll be inputting from my iPhone (currently an 8) and my MacBook Pro. Not sure about cables yet--recommendations?

I should also mention that I currently have a red Dragonfly DAC with their Jitterbug filter that I use with my iPhone and an older pair of Sennheiser headphones. I recently purchased  a coaxial cable (Evergreen Bridge from AudioQuest) that I will use to connect the Dragonfly to the Zen Triode. This will get me started, but I don't want the DAC to be the weakest link and keep me from getting the best from my new system. So, I'm looking for a more capable DAC.

I like the denafrips suggestion. I have been reading reviews. The presentation  tends, according to reviewers, to be warm. I wondered if this would be a good thing and compliment the warmth of my tube amp or if it would be too much of a good thing and come at the expense of detail?
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #6 - 02/13/21 at 18:03:59
 
I don't have any realistic first hand experience with DACs within your budget range so can't be as helpful as I'd like to be. I love my DAC--but it lists for 6,000 dollars (not what I paid for it!) so I think it's off the table for recommending.

I do want to address the "warmth of your tube amp." I would not describe the Zen amp as "warm." Certainly not warm in the sense of the Dynaca amp of my Dad's I grew up with or the EICO integrated stereo amp from '59 I had for a handful of years. The Zen amp can be made slightly warm with some tube complements and slightly not-warm with others and points in between--in stock form I'd call it pretty close to neutral. So if there's a bit of "warmth" from a DAC I don't think it would be compounding a warm signature that would be syruppy or thick and would conceal detail.
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HockessinKid
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #7 - 02/13/21 at 18:12:15
 
The Denafrips Ares has digital coax, optical, and USB inputs + single ended RCA and balanced XLR outputs to your amp or preamp. In addition to sounding great, it's got everything you'll need for connecting sources.

I don't use Apple products, but most folks use a USB cable to connect a laptop or small factor computer to the DAC. I suggest you search out a USB cable that is compatible with your MacBook Pro which is likely to give you better SQ than the iPhone-Dragonfly set up. Try each of the USB outputs on the MacBook as one may sound better than another.

HK
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #8 - 02/13/21 at 18:17:26
 
Quote:
Posted by: BJF      Posted on: Today at 17:32:30

...I like the denafrips suggestion. I have been reading reviews. The presentation  tends, according to reviewers, to be warm. I wondered if this would be a good thing and compliment the warmth of my tube amp or if it would be too much of a good thing and come at the expense of detail?


So I have a pair of UFOs (with the bypass cap mod, copper beeswax cap and stepped attenuators) and Omega Super AlNiCo monitors. And I would not call the sound warm or "soft" in the traditional tube sense. Rather it is detailed and transparent with just a hint of liquidity (and all of that can be adjusted with different tubes, but that is a whole 'nother kettle of fish). My experience is all the detail and warmth your front end inputs will be output by your amp and speakers. Nothing added and nothing subtracted.

You made some excellent choices for amp and speaker and are in for a real treat when they arrive. And you are wise to consider the best front end you can afford because it will pay you back in spades in your new system.


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will
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #9 - 02/13/21 at 18:59:52
 
I agree about trying to get the best front end you can work out.

With a transparent and revealing system like you are getting...I think there is nothing more important than the front end and all its parts.....If the beauty and completeness is not there, your amp and speakers won't have it. So getting the best source you can afford, and supporting it with the best cables, power, digital conversion, USB regeneration, computer or server....finding the best balance you can put together is an exploration you will not likely regret.

I have not been DAC shopping for years having been really happy with a tuned up NOS Tranquility DAC with a souped up Mini, USB cleaner, and using an external drive (firewire) on a different buss than the USB out for the DAC, even the drive chosen for musical quietness and smooth/complete sound for music files. Related, I have experienced HK's suggestions for trying different USB ports, some quieter, so more musical.

After the Tranquility I got onto a Gustard X20Pro modification cycle. The DAC got a lot of praise as it was, competing with high end DACs according to many, but with fairly simple modifications, it came into a new level, one that some said competed well with very high end analog setups and the best digital. Don't know, but I find it sounded like music, not "digital," and still do a few years later.

So I have not really been looking further, although the higher range Denafrips and Holo DAC seem to keep coming up for me. But I like what I have so much, I really can't see changing at this point.

The modified Gustard is seriously supported by a modified Singxer USB convertor (I am using usb into the Singxer SU-1 and I2S from it to DAC) and the best sounding cables I could make or get, with clean power, a very simple/quiet OS running my Mini, and player software that to me processes 44.1 uncompressed, error corrected files in as real a way as possible. Vibration mitigation is everywhere in the chain, supporting less damage to the source digital, and choices for feet were different for each part of the chain, all determined by sound.

With the Tranquility I did not miss high-resolution, the 44K files sounding really good, but it was tuned for that....no upsampling....pure NOS.

Then with the Gustard, it sounds like it has been tuned for hi-resolution files and upsampling to me. From a lot of testing, I enjoy the 44k files upsampled in quality player software to 352.8K, supporting how important software and computer hardware is. If it reveals the files in ways that mess with the digital timing, and/or by adding noise, or truncating the files in any ways, it will have digital artifacts....and if not, it can sound like music!

In this sheltered and limited quest it has been many years since I thought digital was brittle or damaged sounding with time or noise issues, not because there have not been problems in digital development, but because I have tried to meet those challenges with attention to refinement on all fronts that contribute to a front end. And I find they all matter if we want to utilize all that is there on a digital file....which is a lot more than many digital front ends can convey well across the full spectrum and across many recording styles.

To me the most important and easier reads are in the very fine stuff.....leading edges, complexity and completeness of detail feathering hard edges, textures, harmonic information...the space and room sounds....decays. If these subtler and more fragile parts of the signal are all fully there, and evenly across the spectrum, chances are the rest of the signal is less impaired, more complete, more natural sounding.

I think I was lucky, especially back in the day, when I had a lot of help from the developer of the Tranquility DAC, a project where every part was tested by blind testing, the goal to match good analog front ends in multiple high end setups. Not only parts, they discovered everything else mattered and approached it the same way, each cable, or computer, software, or whatever...all of it run through extensive blind testing. So I was able to glean the benefits from this serious testing by folks I almost always agree with on sound balance and the myriad qualities that make a recording sound like music.

So learning from Eric Hider, and then working with the foundation he provided, I am still learning all the time, the music a great teacher.

A tribute to the effort into design, the Tranquility, out of production for quite a while now, still Eric often has folks with high-end DACs who heard a Tranquility setup at a friends, and want Eric to set them up with the latest Tranquility DAC tuning, Mini setup, etc. From him I have also been hearing good things about the Holo ladder DACs from Kitsune, apparently a very refined DAC, especially with a little extra fine tuning. Seems the Holo flagship is now being praised by many folks as the best there is. Costly, but for the sustained levels of careful development, and for the money, still amazing by reports.

Anyway, as I look at generalized fundamentals of digital, my idea is that many folks who are still biased against digital, are limited by that bias. Thinking it is just not quite right makes it harder to get it right!

Then many often inadvertently support keeping digital down by buying gear that can't be great due to its incompleteness, "proving" that digital can't quite be great! Think about it, many hard core analog lovers simply don't go nearly as deeply into developing a digital front end as they have for their analog front ends. And in a round about way, by using digital that sounds pretty good, but can't be great by its nature, this supports a bias against digital.

Even lots of reviewers are using pretty noisy computer setups for fragile purist digital signals, like laptops with noisy displays integrated, OK, but compared to cleaner systems, limiting potential from the get go where it all begins...the digital file server.

On the other hand, there is a lot of great effort going into refined OSs, player software, and hardware to support fragile digital with the least damage. Also the resurgance for ladder DACs is now shaking things up nicely, setting new "analog" standards that more "normal" chip users are learning to compete with.... Associated, DACs like mine, with later model Saber chips that traditionally are not as musical as many would like, are being designed by innovative sound developers overseas who are joining the fray in big ways, pushing design boundaries for tech that supports not just good tech, but good sound.... So making DACs while carefully listening for the experience of music, not digital playback. The Holo seems to be in this category from what I hear. Sorry to say I have not heard it myself though, instead parroting a trusted friend's views.

Bottom line, especially with digital to analog being innately fragile, I have found consistently that every part really matters. And if well done, it can make music that is relatively undamaged, resolving, spacious, dynamic and musical...complete. I love my digital setup and how well it integrates with my system. Not totally perfect, but the whole produces some eerily real feeling sound to me, and I am pretty well blown away every time I listen, and for the whole session, amazed again and again.

Sorry for the generalizations and no real recommendations, but I thought a broader baseline story might help.

Good luck,

Will
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Donnie
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #10 - 02/13/21 at 19:21:30
 
I have had the Denafrips Ares II for getting on close to a year now.

It is so good to my ears feeding either my Torii or my ZKit60 (Dan the Amp). It adds some lushness, a huge soundstage and is quite articulate.

To give you a idea of where I have been in my DAC journey through the last 10 years or so and and how I ended up here.

I started with several $1k amps, a Decware ZDAC, then a Wyred 4 Sound DAC 1.
The Wyred stayed in my system for quite a few years until Windows 10 stopped talking to it, rendering it into a brick.
I then replaced it with a Grace Designs M900 for a year or two.
The Grace didn't really light my fire, so I started shopping and the Denafrips popped up on my radar. I'm so happy that it did. I've been raving about it ever since.

So there you go, in the future I may step up the Denafrips product line as I see fit.

If there was someone out there wanting to send me $1400 and maybe selling my Ares II would put me into something really interesting....
Come on Covid check!
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BJF
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #11 - 02/13/21 at 19:41:28
 
Again, thank you all so much for the input. This is very, very helpful. I am happy to hear I have made good choices so far. I am a newbie, but I am a tireless investigator, so if I read, listen, and gather enough I usually find a good path forward. I'll keep digging.

The Denafrips does not ship from within the US, and that always gives me a little pause. But the reviews are very good!

The Schiit DAC has modules that make it really easy to update, which seems like a good idea, since I read that DACs may need updating.

The Burson Composer has oamps in its output stage that can be rolled for different sound experiences, which I thought was interesting.
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Donnie
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #12 - 02/13/21 at 20:32:07
 
BJF wrote on 02/13/21 at 19:41:28:
The Denafrips does not ship from within the US, and that always gives me a little pause. But the reviews are very good!



When I ordered my Denafrips, I too had my doubts about ordering from outside of the US.

But Alvin from Vinshine Audio sent me a email almost immediately after placing my order making sure that I knew that the order had been received and giving me a shipping date.
It was delivered a day before his promise date, and I became a happy customer.
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Rob7
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #13 - 02/13/21 at 23:05:33
 
Denafrips. Running the Terminator in one of my systems.  Stereophile reviewed terminator and Aries. (Said both “measured” the same).

Denafrips uses an R2R architecture vs the much more common Sigma Delta chip. As always, their are naysayers to both technologies. Typically the Delta Sigmas will measure better than R2R  system.

While a starting point for comparison, I’m convinced there is something happening beyond what measurements reveal. Hearing is a mysterious extraordinarily complicated neurological process heavily affected by the external environment (Ever wonder why Asian language speakers find L and R difficult? They sound completely different to them than they do to native English speakers. Much like there are sounds in their language native english speakers are incapable of “hearing”. Our brains learn to filter extraneous sounds that may interfere with our specific language. There are many interesting YouTube videos about auditory illusions also)

I have a reasonably good Sigma Delta rig, Oppo 205, to compare.  The R2R Denafrips  was a game changer for me.  My turn table is gathering dust.

Their prices are listed in Singapore dollars. Considerably less in US dollars! (Last I checked S$1000 is about $755 US.)
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ArtMan
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #14 - 02/14/21 at 03:00:49
 
I was in search for a new DAC about a year ago and almost bought the Denafrips Ares II but the more I read the more I was convinced to buy the Denafrips Pontus, the bigger brother to the Area. The cost was about $1700, about twice the Ares but I've had no regrets as it is a great value for the price and sounds wonderful. Money spent on the source will elevate your amp and speakers to sound better than you could imagine.

I would encourage you to consider spending more on your DAC. You will thank yourself later in pure musical pleasure.
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #15 - 02/14/21 at 04:20:58
 
BJF, if you can stretch your budget to $1100 you might want to give the Cambridge Audio CXN v2 streamer DAC a close, serious look:

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CACXNV2

Steve Deckert raved about it not that long ago. You can read about his experience with it here:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1587527488
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #16 - 02/14/21 at 05:28:21
 
BJF,

First off welcome to the forum.  I guess a few questions are in order for you to sort out before you make an educated decision.  Do you like the idea of having a dedicated DAC  with a separate streamer or do you want a DAC/streamer combo?  How important are having XLR outputs as an option?  If you have had a chance to hear certain type of DAC’s....Which do you prefer… a R2R ladder type DAC or one that utilizes chipsets from makers  like Wolfson, Sabre, or AKM ?  Also....are you interested in listening to a DSD...if that is a must...then there are certain DAC’s that come off the table right away....like the Schiit.  

Like yourself… I went from an AQ Dragonfly Red coming out of my Mac computer to my system.  I was  also streaming music from Tidal and Qobuz from my iPhone, as well as using my iMac running Audirvana, going to a solid state amp.  I really enjoyed the sound, but I was in the market for upgrading my DAC, so I thought hard about some of the aforementioned questions.  

For me XLR was an option I wanted.  I had already heard at Decfest the Teac NT503 which uses the AKM chipset....and I really liked it...ALOT.  But then I had also heard a lot of good things about the Schiit DAC... and was very curious about the R2R ladder style topography.  So I did a lot of reading about R2R ladder DAC’s.

So I ultimately decided to buy the new Schiit  Bifrost True multibit DAC.  I am currently streaming from a Google Chromecast Audio via Optical to my Bifrost.  I must say that to my ears I love the sound and as of now I am partial to  R2R ladder style DAC.  Will this change....possibly.  But I would really need to do side by side comparisons of ladder DAC’s vs chipset DAC’s in the same price point.  

Now....the monkey wrench....I am listening through a solid state amp.  My Torii MKIV is in que and I should take delivery probably in late March.   So please take what I am saying based off this.  Once I have a more revealing system....my impressions may change.  But there are so many variables that Will mentioned that alter the sound.  I have also heard phenomenal things about the Kitsune Holo....it’s out of my price range right now...but I could see that being my endgame DAC, especially since its an R2R ladder style.  

Having the best front end that you can afford is money well invested.  Some advice.....whichever DAC’s you choose to narrow it down....make to take a look at the power supply.  FYI....The Teac’s use a dedicated toroidal transformer for each channnel.....that was one thing that I found impressive.  A lot of companies do not do this.  So far I love my Bifrost and have no complaints.  If you are going through USB...the Bifrost USB hub has been completely reworked with a new pico processor that according to Schiit...blows away optical and digital coaxial.  For a short while when I was running the USB out of my iMAC to the Bifrost USB...I have to say that it was super impressive.


Hope this helps and good luck.

Dom
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HockessinKid
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #17 - 02/14/21 at 11:55:29
 
As Dom noted the Cambridge Audio CXN V2 is a very good one box streamer/DAC option for $1099. As funds allow you can get the unit upgraded with an excellent tube output & Lundahl transformers by ModWright Instruments which makes it a truly reference unit for another $1500.

If you plan on streaming HiRez music, I don't think you can find a better value. It also has plenty of input options for other sources, as well as RCA and XLR outputs. It's also very user friendly and Roon Ready.

I'm a happy owner.

HK
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BJF
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #18 - 02/14/21 at 13:38:46
 
Thank you for mentioning the streamer option, specifically the Cambridge Audio CXN V2. A streamer is something I haven't considered, but it sounds like a great option. I'm definitely going to investigate.
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #19 - 02/14/21 at 13:49:50
 
John,

You are correct, it's $1500. Guess I was thinking about the PH 9.0 phono preamp upgrade cost 😁.

BJF,

The CXN V2 is a streamer and a DAC in one box. Saves you the need from a connecting USB or other digital cable. It's usually the cable that introduces SQ issues. It also saves you rack or shelf space.

HK
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #20 - 02/14/21 at 14:54:18
 
Hi, buy a topping dac, the d70 or d90, even the e30 is already verry nice, i had over the last years more then 120 dacs, the topping dacs are very nice for the money, you can take the allo usbridge, or the allo signature spdif streamer. Verry cheap together and better then the cambridge for me.

Another very nice combo is audio note 0.1x dac with allo spdif signature streamer.
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BJF
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #21 - 02/14/21 at 17:48:58
 
buy a topping dac, the d70 or d90, even the e30 is already verry nice,

Thank you for this recommendation! I've dug into the Topping D90 a little, and like what I read. In fact, the descriptions I read sound fantastic.

The Toppings D 90 comes in a standard version and an MQA version. Is the MQA feature worth another $100? I'm new to streaming at this level, and have looked into MQA a bit. I'm not sure what to think.
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #22 - 02/14/21 at 22:27:11
 
There are a lot of good choices for you to choose from. I forgot to include a thoughtful review of the Denafrips Pontus. You could get some useful information via this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM2ZsPBaOpo
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #23 - 02/14/21 at 23:27:11
 
and remember, the Denafrips website prices in Singapore dollars and the conversion is 0.75 so lots cheaper in US$!!
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #24 - 02/15/21 at 04:24:26
 
++ on Denafrips. I have the Pontus, and highly recommend it. However, if the Pontus is beyond budget, the Ares is sure to please based on all the positive praise 've seen.
Plus, Alvin at Denafrips was very responsive and professional to my emails
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #25 - 02/15/21 at 15:53:04
 
Damn. You guys are making me want to buy a Denafrips DAC...
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #26 - 02/15/21 at 17:31:43
 
Buy a Denafrips and throw rocks at the other DAC's.
They are that good.
Well at least to my way of listening.
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #27 - 02/15/21 at 19:33:59
 
Here is a YouTube video of a DAC shootout that compares several of the DAC’s that are recommended here like the Schiit, Denefrips, Topping, Chord, and the RME.  It’s a decent video and the takeaway is like ordering full fat ice cream, all are very good it just depends what flavor you are after.  I’m sure there are better videos out there.....but figured this may help.  The Denefrips does get the overall recommendation at the end of the day and the Schiit gets major accolades as well.  

https://youtu.be/sCP63G8MYOI

Dom
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #28 - 02/15/21 at 20:07:06
 
No matter what DAC you decide to buy, your amp and speakers will never sound better than your source allows. Get that right and you will have exciting sound for years.
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #29 - 02/15/21 at 20:58:01
 
CAJames - you and be both!

I'll add another voice to the Schiit Bifrost recommendation.  If it's something you're interested in trying, I would actually recommend picking up a Modi Multibit first - $250 new, maybe $180 or so used.  Its mids and highs are very close to that of the Bifrost, and will give you a good idea of the flavor.  The biggest difference is that the bass frequencies on the Modi MB are a bit bloated and loose, while the Bifrost's bass is much tighter and very clean.  But, if you get the Modi first and like it, great!  And if you like it but want tighter bass, sell it and upgrade to the Bifrost.

Also, I saw the Raspberry Pi streamers with Allo hats recommended, and I would second that.  I have the Digione, run Volumio, and am very happy. I have an iPhone and am able to use Airplay to stream with ease from my phone and computer.

As far as MQA, Linn put out an argument a few years ago about why MQA is really a play for Tidal to make money off of a form of digital rights management: https://www.linn.co.uk/blog/mqa-is-bad-for-music.  Others argue it's not like that at all and MQA is totally fine.  My personal opinion is that it's not worth the extra cost, especially if you don't have Tidal subscription.  Just my two cents.

Best of luck, and enjoy your amp when it comes in!
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #30 - 02/15/21 at 21:29:21
 
Good afternoon,

Been following this thread closely.  As I have been considering a stand alone DAC, you've shared lots of good info.  I do have a dilemma.  Currently I'm running an Oppo 105D as a CD/SACD Player, streamer (Tidal) and DAC.  Most of you know the Oppo utilizes dual DAC's.  It is quite versatile.   Still, I want to take it up a notch, so I'm considering a new DAC and perhaps continuing to use the Oppo as a CD/ SACD transport.  Not sure about the streaming piece.  So, do I want to go the route of peacemaking it all out at one time?  Or, do I take it one piece at a time starting with the DAC?

Jim
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #31 - 02/16/21 at 16:56:46
 
Quote:
Posted by: Blueone302      Posted on: Yesterday at 21:29:21
Good afternoon,

...Still, I want to take it up a notch, so I'm considering a new DAC and perhaps continuing to use the Oppo as a CD/ SACD transport.


Ah, the SACD transport...

I don't know Oppo, or how serious you are about SACD, so apologies in advance if none of this applies, but in general there is no such thing as a "SACD transport." The SACD standard says you can NOT output the DSD bit stream (the SACD file format) the same way you can with a Red Book CD. A (very) few companies have transports with will output DSD over HDMI but typically that will only interface with their own DACs. I know Oppo does a lot of cool stuff and it is possible your unit can do that. But if so, and you care about SACDs, that drastically shortens the list of DACs that you can use. If you (still) care let me tell you my story.

I was an early adopter of SACD, and my journey as been long and tortured, although it has a happy ending. I got my first SACD player from Audio Advisor in the early 2000s, I don't even remember exactly what it was, it may have been from Music Hall. And SACDs sounded great, finally what I had hoped digital would sound like all long. And I was very happy for a few years until it stopped reading some of my discs, and Dr. Google indicated I had the symptoms of a bad laser. It was out of warranty and instead of getting it fixed I figured I deserved an "audiophile" SACD player that I could buy once and use for decades, like most of my audio gear. At that time the Marantz SA-11 had just come out, so I bought one. And it sounded fantastic, noticeably better than my old one. But in less than two years it developed the same symptoms as my previous one. Fortunately I caught it just before the warranty expired so I sent it in and they replaced the laser. Problem solved... for a few more years. I replaced the laser again and when it went bad the third time I started shopping for a new player, hopefully this time I would get a player that I could actually use for decades, like most of my audio gear. I was also interested in hirez downloads so I wanted one that was also a DAC, and I found the Yamaha CD-S2100, that promised among other things a super high quality transport. When I got it it sounded even better than the Marantz, on SACDs, CDs and downloads. But out of the box it had a problem with the transport (should have been a clue) so I got a replacement, and was happy for a more years until (you guessed it) the laser started going bad.

This whole time I was thinking the holy grail would be a way to rip SACDs, like you can do with regular CDs but because of the licensing and blah blah blah that wasn't an option except for a very special version of the PS3 game controller, and I didn't want mess with that. And then it happened: someone figured out how to hack specific models of Sony, Pioneer and (I think) Oppo DVD players and use them to rip SACDs. Details here:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/28569-sacd-ripping-using-an-oppo-or-pio...

and/or here:

https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/rip-sacd-with-a-blu-ray-player.3652/

It takes some work, but I'm a computer professional and long story short now I'm using a $30 Sony DVD player to rip my SACDS, a cheap Windows netbook to play them, along with hirez downloads, a Audiolab CDT6000 to play my CDs and the Yamaha is just a DAC. And I was (really) happy for a few years until you guys started talking about the Denafrips DACs, and they look really really good, along with the DDCs. So thanks for that.
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #32 - 02/17/21 at 16:33:59
 
I am on the same boat so would like to add to the query.  I currently have a bluesound node 2i and looking to enhance my digital source.  I have read the thread by Steve with regards to the CXN v2 and I like the all in one box for streaming Tidal, Spotify.  I am also looking into Roon.  But I also like what I have read with the Denafrips DAC.  If you have a standalone DAC what do you use for streaming.  what cable/connection do you have b/w streamer and DAC?  I do recognize that I can use the bluesound node 2i as a streamer but wanting to see if there are other choices.  I have attached a diagram to hopefully aid the discussion.
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Roon_ready_pic_002.png

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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #33 - 02/17/21 at 17:06:58
 
Holy crap that looks complicated!

I run from my computer to my DAC to my amplifier.
USB cable from my computer and interconnects from the DAC to the amp.

The computer holds my music and does streaming if I decided to do that.
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #34 - 02/17/21 at 17:16:45
 
Donnie,
That would work too!  Is your computer close to your dac/amp?  Do you use a regular usb cable or higher audio grade cable?
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #35 - 02/17/21 at 17:53:44
 
I do what Donnie does. I don't stream but I have hirez downloads and SACD rips on a PC by my listening chair. I run a 12' USB cable from the laptop to the DAC and IC to preamp to amp.
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #36 - 02/17/21 at 18:30:24
 
Thank you Sir!
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #37 - 02/17/21 at 18:41:47
 
I bought a Curious USB cable for the connection from my laptop to my DAC. It made a significant difference in the sound for the better. There was a significant increase in the perceived amount of mid range information as well as sweeter and more extended highs. Just be aware that even a USB cable can make a significant difference in the sound.

I could never see going back to the sound through a regular USB cable for that connection.
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #38 - 02/17/21 at 18:44:29
 
Thanks!  That is a hefty price tag for that cable!
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #39 - 02/17/21 at 18:51:08
 
I'm sure I'll eventually get an "audiophile" USB cable, but since my DAC is also my SACD player I can compare playing rips of SACDs over USB vs playing them directly on the player/DAC and if anything they sound better over my Amazon brand USB cable. I'll never say cables don't matter, but I think specifically in the case of USB a lot is determined by the USB receiver circuit in your DAC.

Just FWIW though one of the many things that is appealing about the Denafrips DACs is you can also get a DDC to reclock your USB before it hits the DAC.

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Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #40 - 02/17/21 at 20:02:23
 
I have a very rudimentary understanding a what a DDC does and how it may affect DAC performance.  Just seems like more stuff to hook together and I may tend to be leaning more towards an all in box.  Will do more reading and learning whilst working from home!  Lol!  Thanks!
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #41 - 02/17/21 at 20:16:15
 
Based on all the reading I have done, it seems that using USB connections require, or encourage, the addition of all sorts of devices to prevent or restore damage done in the USB circuits and wired connections. In my view, a person is ahead of the game by using equipment that connects with other than USB.
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #42 - 02/17/21 at 20:18:31
 
I think complexity of the front end system is pretty relative to how you want to play music, and as much, how pristine, musically complex and complete you want the digital conversion to analog to be.

For the best playback, using a simple computer or server-to-DAC setup, like our stereo systems, I have found everything matters. Power quality and vibration influence how noisy an amp is, and how much associated noise damages the signal…. Same with the computer or server and DAC...how noise free and revealing they can be depends on power quality and musically tuned vibration mitigation. Also using error free uncompressed files as opposed to compressed Flac and worse, with clean, uncompressed files, the computer/streamer has to work less hard, compressed files needing more work to reconstruct and fill in missing gaps as musically as possible.....

And more computer work, equates to more computer heat and noise, and associated, jitter, and truncation to the music files. Which introduces how the quality and efficiency of software used to play the files matters. And the cables used to convey the digital and analog signals..... Just like with our amps, and speakers, how quiet and resolving different cables are matters. And not just analog, every USB or I2S (HDMI) cable I have tried sounds different, and some much better than others to me, but that is another story. Also different USB implementation sounds different, some sophisticated developers liking USB, but only if well done.

So I have found that these things and more all make some sonic differences individually that can be discerned, and collectively, these potential issue areas can be pretty powerful, leading me to a need for careful attention to all potential problem areas if I want a more ultimate sound quality.

That said, especially these days, with many decent DACs, streamers, and software setups, we can get pretty good playback. The gear is becoming more competent, so causing less issues, and as much, better at "resolving" timing problems, noise and truncation of digital information less noticeably.

So we can get good sounding music with a well done, simple, and relatively low cost digital setup. But by paying attention to all potentially damaging areas in the conveyance and decoding of fragile digital files (including cleaner/more complete power, cables, computer, DAC, etc), we can shift the music from good hifi to a more complete, more life-like musical experience. With the fragility of digital files, even with all the current tricks used to "fix" problems.....it still seems much better to avoid these problems from the start for ultimate digital-to-music conversion.



So I think the Roon diagram posted above is informative, being complex as a means to potentially set up a big home network as noise and damage free as possible. But at the same time, these same principles apply to a simpler system using only a computer/server and DAC.

I don't have Roon, but as I interpret this diagram, it is mostly about avoiding damage to digital playback from less competent computers, cables, other hardware, and resulting noise, jitter, truncation.

So I think this diagram is a good illustration of ways to help avoid these issues. Especially for Roon, because its database and interactive functions introduce lots of computing complexity, its ever-updating vast musical information, personalized filtering for finding music, etc, creates heavy internet and computing loads. So their optimal design seeks to isolate heavy Core computing from the digital playback, leaving playback more simple and clean.

This is one reason they recommend a separate computer for the Roon Core, to isolate noise and jitter that all that computing work could contribute to the music player if they were on the same computer.

So running Core separately, and connecting this heavy computing information through the router, and from there to a pad or phone over wifi, allows for a very sophisticated "remote" with less effect on the music files... The actual music files played through a separate computer, or in this illustration, "a streamer," the streamer doesn’t have to do anything more than play files, so it can run leaner and cooler, so quieter, causing less damage to the digital files.

It seems Roon can work with a single computer doing the Core work as well as streaming and playback from ripped files. It would just be at a cost if we are seeking a more completely musical analog creation.

Anyway, not having experienced Roon, or internet audio streaming in my big setup, this is my crude take on the basic Roon setup.



So as I understand it, digital "artifacts" we hear, are mostly because of problems introduced by noise, jitter and truncation, and also….how these are "repaired" leaves sonic traces we can hear. As a result, a lot of DAC hardware is about extracting the files as cleanly as possible, but also "repairing" them as seamlessly as possible. And repairing something in a digital stream is just hard to do without artifacts. So even with great care we tend to get some artifacts, but we can mitigate them in many ways if we choose.

Where I am going now though....Like the things I mention above, paying attention to the many parts of a front end to get a more ultimate sound.... this is the same in good DAC design. It pays careful attention to keeping the files as pristine as possible, and having to do as little "repair" as possible.... simply because the conversion to music sounds more like real music that way!

This is a basis of the resurgence of NOS DACs and ladder R2R DACs like the Denafrips DACs. R2R ladders and good old NOS chips are fairly well acknowledged as good ways to decode digital with less timing issues, and with less computing/chip affect.....and thus, with all else well done, potentially helping to resolve the output music more beautifully, more naturally.

So with the more sophisticated modern DACs....attention to everything tends to be more complete..... a cleaner and more powerful power supply.… cleaner switches, displays and pre sections… more efficient and quieter parts..… cleaner interfaces and connectors.… better clocks.… choosing the more costly and difficult to produce ladder R2R over stock DAC chips, etc etc..... The more carefully designed and implemented the DAC, the more the output stage of a DAC can sound like music!

And this brings it back to the thread of the same benefits from applying these same principles to the whole of the front end system. Less issues entering the DAC, the less the DAC has to "fix," making for a more pristine musical output.

Finally a theme emerges…. Great digital playback is very much about not creating damage to fragile digital files, converting them as cleanly and completely as possible, and outputting the sound in the most musical way......Lots of considerations that need to work well together for optimal digital to analog conversion.
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #43 - 02/17/21 at 20:47:50
 
There is a lot to be digested here.  In my case, I want to be careful.  I got back into tube gear about five or six years ago.  At the time, I was moving out a 7.2 channel system I had had mainly for my girls benefit and was building a two channel system.  My problem was I went too fast.  In the process, I realized it's hard to evaluate multiple new pieces of  audio equipment in a way that helps augment the system as a whole.  At the moment, I have a Mystery Amp on order.  After all I've read so far, I'm wondering if I might need to go back to what I learned from the past and wait on the amp and see how it integrates before going with a new DAC.
J
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #44 - 02/17/21 at 21:49:54
 
Just hook your DAC up to your computer and listen to music.

Don't overthink it. You will be fine.

This is supposed to be fun, try to not obsess about too much to begin with.
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #45 - 02/17/21 at 22:20:13
 
Blueone,

I agree. With the Mystery amp coming, you are already in for some burnin and perhaps some adjustments to best fit the new amp in. So if you like the Oppo setup, and don't feel compelled to change it now, it could be a nice point of comparison just to change the amps!

Give you more time to research and get comfortable with a possible front end move too!

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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #46 - 02/18/21 at 20:31:24
 
My streaming has evolved over the years starting with a Mac mini. After 5 years or so I moved to a Bluesound Node 2, which I enjoyed thoroughly for a couple of years before I moved on to a Sonore microRendu. The mRendu proved to be a nice upgrade in sound quality over the Node 2. In lieu of a USB cable I use an adapter from UpTone Audio:

Sonore microRendu > UpTone USPCB A>B Adapter > MHDT Lab Pagoda

Love my DAC (dual PCM1704 chips, NOS, tube buffered, etc.) BTW but it's a bit over the OP's budget. I settled on the $35 UpTone Adapter after trying several far more expensive USB cables. My music library resides on the microRendu's high-capacity SSD card in WAV format. (I don't believe this is an option any longer.)
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #47 - 02/19/21 at 00:13:13
 
Having sold my last main-system turntable more than 25 years ago, I admit to having longed for a digital source, for the past two and a half decades, that is completely absent the cold hard digital glare.  Many digital disc players—even a couple of very expensive ones—have passed through my systems, but none has had the innate ability to reproduce beautiful music the way my Rega table with a Linn tonearm and a great Audioquest MC cartridge did. As good as my stock Oppo UDP 205 player is, it always grates on me during listening sessions. Sometimes the grating is very minor, and other times it makes my ears bleed.  Minor grating or major grating......it’s always present.

On several occasions I have been very close to boxing up the Oppo 205 and shipping it down to Modwright, but for reasons I just can’t put my finger on, I’ve always pulled back.  I am positive that I would have been more than satisfied with Dan’s modification work, but it simply didn’t happen, and likely never will.  On the other hand, my interest in stand alone DACs has been rapidly growing the past several years, with certain DACs in the $1K to $2K range really catching my eye.  

I have read hundreds of DAC reviews and watched dozens of Youtube video reviews of DACs, but have never been convinced that any of them in my price range would substantially raise the level performance while lowering digital glare......that is, until I began reading reviews on the Denafrips DACs.  I finally made the move yesterday and placed an order for a Denafrips Pontus II!  It is scheduled to arrive here in Kansas City in four to five weeks.  Thanks to all you Denafrips fans for pushing me over the edge!
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Jay’s CD2T-Mk3
Denafrips Pontus II
ZROCK2 25th Mods
CSP3 25th & Custom Mods
PAP Quintets with Voxativ 1.6
First Watt J2 or Cary 300SEI
driving Voxativs—no crossover
LFD NCSE driving 15” Woofers
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piezoman
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #48 - 02/19/21 at 00:48:38
 
Doug, congratulations on your decision! I hope you find your new DAC to satisfy your goals.

I have Bryston separates....BDP-2 media player/streamer and BDA-3 DAC. Cost is outside of the interest range of some [$2500 and $3500, respectively], but its just another choice for folks looking for extremely clean & detailed, really low noise floor, with a very neutral rendering of the audio signal.

Anyway, lets us know how your new baby works out for you!

Brad
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will
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Re: Help Choosing a DAC that Pairs Well with Zen Triod
Reply #49 - 02/19/21 at 01:30:14
 
Nice Doug.

I have not heard your Oppo, but years ago I had an earlier Oppo, an 83. Though not the same, designed by the same folks with Oppo's attention for detail in design and solidity. I had it modified by Ric Schultz with some pretty nice modifications costing more than the DAC. And still, it just didn't get it for me. I had hoped it would replace my Rega Apollo that I never quite loved either, but still thought it was more musical than the modded Oppo. As I recall the Oppo sounded intellectual in a cleaner/harder way, and the Rega, intellectual in an "analog" warmer way....neither sounding like music to me across recordings. I recall thinking my not falling for my older Oppo was in part a problem with the Saber chip, many folks finding them a little cool and "digital."

That led to a MacBook pro, and soon after Mini (the stock Mini was notably more refined sounding than the MacBook pro running on battery), and a Decware ZDAC, which was a good improvement. And not long after that, I got a NOS Tranquility DAC to try, and really fell for it. Finally having something that sounded a lot like music to me on more recordings, it did not do that entirely out of the box... It took a few tries with nicer USB cables, nicer ICs, Pure Music software settings and filter refinements, as well as fine tuning the Mini, including integrating a quiet external drive for the music files on a separate buss than the DAC. That was pretty great, but then adding an Aqvox USB power isolator, that was a nice capping phrase, clarifying more space and complexity... Finally, I ended up with good digital playback that was seductive and inspiring....like music.

Now, I am back to more recent Saber chips (9028) in the modified Gustard I have been using for a few years, this chip, by reports, more musical than older ones, but I can't say from direct comparison. I figure a lot of the reason I love this current DAC is that it is really revealing, but also smooth and complex... its nice balance I suspect coming from the designers carefully doing design with listening attention... Dual mono, big and refined toroidal transformers and power supply caps, and a pretty natural  sounding output stage that is complexly slightly warm without being masked... at least with the modifications I did. My mods further improved timing, transparency, with carefully tuned damping, bringing out a nice balance of shimmer, speed, revelation and smoothness...  And doing the modifications over some months, I had time, and good guidance, so my voicing contributions luckily made a nice DAC into what is to me a pretty great one.

Just to say, the distinction between musical reproduction and the feel of real music does not come easily for me, but once there, every day it is mind boggling how harmonizing it can be. In contrast though, I am amazed how subtly odd it can be when something goes a little off.

I was just retrying an older Uptone USB regenerator that I had taken out after a USB cable I made really worked! A lucky design attempt, it sounded more refined without the Regen. But as things change I like to revisit things I used to like, so I had put the Uptone regenerator back in a few weeks ago, and liked some things about it...a little more clarified, a little more contrasts in the soundstage.

But finally I realized I was not loving the music as much, especially across recordings. So today I pulled the Uptone thing out and putting the same song back on, relaxed into the magic...the deeper and fuller beauty had returned.

Just ruminating on how important balance is for me in this system/room, and how fragile it can be, especially in setting up a front end that is super transparent, resolving, and complex... providing amazing space, textures and timbre without hardness. I find that many of the things that can make this gorgeous complex happen, can also make it not happen if a little off balance!

So hopefully the Pontus II will be pretty plug and play, but if it is close, I hope  experimenting will make it really sing! They have a lot of great design things going on, and a lot of folks loving their DACs, so fingers crossed!
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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