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Understanding tubes a little better (Read 4392 times)
Donnie
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Understanding tubes a little better
01/10/21 at 22:19:23
 
Alright I have some questions about tubes. Not necessarily about anything specifically for a particular amplifier, but more about why different tubes sound, well different.

As my understanding of tubes is limited to the fact that they get warm when electricity runs through them and I like how they make my music sound, so how in the hell do they work?

So I figure that all of the model numbers that everyone bandy about must mean something and I've noticed that there must be at least a couple of different competing systems (American-Metric??).
Yes I have looked how they work on Wikipedia and it went right over my head, protons and photons and such talk.

I've also wondered why different manufactures of the same numbered tubes sound different than the others (Different materials, different values?).

I'm not too proud to admit that I don't roll tubes whatsoever just because I don't want to blow anything up. My Torii has more or less the same tube compliment that it came with going on 10 years now. They have been replaced with as close to the same thing that came out of it several times.

So please lift the veil a little bit and explain why do you change values and such.


I have a feeling that quite a few people hanging out around here are in the same boat, I'm just not too proud to ask for help with my ignorance.
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Brian
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Re: Understanding tubes a little better
Reply #1 - 01/11/21 at 01:17:59
 
Hi Donnie,
Great question. This ought to get both of us an education.

I can say that in the American numbering system something like 6DJ8 would mean 6 volts on the heater filament, model DJ, 8 pin base. I have forgotten if the pin count is the number of active pins, or if it is all pins including dummies.

Triode has three electrodes, being: Anode, Cathode and Grid.  Tetrode has four and Pentode has five.  Each type having only one Anode and one Cathode. I do not know what the other elements are called, or what they do.

And that I think is just about the extent of my knowledge.  
We ought to get some good information here. Like why does a Pentode sound different when it is strapped to triode than it sounds when run with all five elements each doing their own business.  

I have been told pentodes must have negative feedback, then I read of a pentode amplifier which does not use negative feedback.  How is that done?


Brian
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will
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Re: Understanding tubes a little better
Reply #2 - 01/11/21 at 02:43:47
 
OK, I will give the basics a try anyway, trying to expand a little on some of Brian's points. No expert, my understanding is rudimentary and I hope this is relatively accurate, and useful in some ways. And please straighten me out if anyone sees any problems in this explanation.

It seems the basic concepts for a tube’s function are: a diode is like our rectifiers, a cathode and a plate (anode) being the electrodes, making the “di,“ and the “ode” being short for electrode. A triode...like our input tubes, the “tri” is the cathode and plate, plus a grid in between, so three electrodes, or a triode.

For a triode, inside the plates, in the center is the cathode, and between the cathode and plate is the grid. The cathode is negatively charged, and the plate is positive with high voltage. The cathode is heated up, usually by an internal filament inside the cathode tube, so that orange light we see is usually from the filament, or glowing cathode once heated up. This heat/energy, causes the cathode to emit clouds of electrons into the glass enclosed vacuum of the tube.

Next to and parallel with the cathode is the grid, also negative due to how it is “biased.” Then the, plate, outside the grid, set up with very positive voltage, causes the electrons from the negative cathode to be attracted to the plate. The grid in between, carries the signal, and acts as a “valve,” allowing more or less electrons through the grid to the plate depending on signal voltage. Signal voltage "controls" how open or closed the "valve" is. Being biased to be negative, like the cathode, wide open, as I recall, the grid needs to be a little less than 0 volts for clear sound…. Then with more negative voltage shifts from the signal, the “valve” "closes," letting less electrons through the signal carrying grid to the plate.

Dual purpose, the plate being strongly positive in order to attract electrons from the negative cathode through the negative grid, it is also generally the plate that acts as the signal output of the tube, collecting and moving the signal onward.

That we can't easily measure all we can hear, or in the case of complex things like tubes, clearly differentiate the exact causes of sound differences, I am pretty sure this would be a daunting task to solve with measurements.

In my experience with amp modifications and cable making, in wires alone, pretty slight variations in materials, gauges, purity, structure, damping, and dielectric can make notable sound differences. It is acknowledged that different metals, their purity, and structure make differences as conductors, and different gauges of same carry power and signal differently, and different dielectrics have measurable negative effects for pure signal flow....These are good rudimentary pointers to exploring sound if we are interested in using wires optimally.... But as far as I can tell, our measurements for wires are still not good enough to explain why very similar wires can sound pretty different.

So in more complex tubes, beyond the electronic designs that make it a variant of a tube type, like a 6DJ8/ECC88 as a variant of 6922/E88CC, all the parts and means of connections of a tube effect how the electricity and signal act, in turn, making the potentials for differences in sound pretty explainable, at least conceptually.  

A lot of different metals, wires and connections in a tube, each choice effecting electronic flows, each would influence the sonic quality when the tube is put into action. Add to that material interactions with power and heat, design variations like glass shape and size, glass composition and weight, along with plate structure and micas effecting damping as well as heat dissipation.... the getter composition and the quality of the vacuum, etc. This presents a lot of potential variation between tube builds. Who knows exactly what just the glass composition, weight, and shape can do to the sound....not to mention all those little wires; getter compositions, shapes, and placement; the density, thicknesses, materials and numbers of “micas” used, and so on.…

On subtler levels I have no doubt each one of these and more effect the sound individually, and collectively they give us a distinct tube signature. So the individual variations in this complex of design and parts, cause equal measuring tubes of the same type, to sound quite differently….all of these things effecting how electricity acts….more easy flow or less, more or less noise and vibration, more or less synergy…..

So collectively, even with the same design and production methods, with even slight variations in the many natural materials and parts used, and slight variables in month to month, or year to year production effects on the designs and materials, it makes sense to me that this can make "the same" tubes sound differently. Then change up the internal design and spacing a little, the wire or getter compositions, the glass formula, shape, and thickness, etc, seems these will cause even greater sound differences, causing the same measuring tubes to sound even more different.

My  take anyway. From here, talking about characteristic sonic qualities of different tube types, variants, and makes is a lot, and I am pretty tired Wink!
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CAJames
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Re: Understanding tubes a little better
Reply #3 - 01/11/21 at 03:11:33
 
Donnie,

I've been rolling tubes since the 90's and I've acquired a fair amount of knowledge , but unfortunately it doesn't fit well into a message board post.

I can tell you that with American tube names the first number is often voltage the cathode (aka heater the part that gets hot and spits out electrons) requires, for example:

5U4, 5V4, 5AR4 are American rectifiers that need 5V for the cathode. There are European names like GZ32, GZ34 and GZ37 are basically the same tube.

6DJ8 and 6SN7 are American tubes that have 6V heaters. The European names are ECC88 and ECC32, and then there are a bunch of different versions like 6922 and 7308, E88CC and E188CC that are still basically the same tube but built and/or tested to higher standards of reliability and uniformity.

But there are exceptions like the 7DJ8 is a 7 volt version of the 6DJ8 (also known as the PCC88 in Europe) but the 7N7  is the same electronically as a 6SN7 but has a different base (different types of pin on the bottom).

And beyond just the tube type there are often codes on the tube that specificity the date of manufacture and factory. That is just too much for me but others are deep into that level of tube identification and have a hierarchy of tubes based on when and where they were made.

So, bottom line there really aren't any short cuts to just spending time learning about is. Fortunately the google makes it easy, just look for "6DJ8 equivalent"  and its all there. And if tube name trivia is your thing, there is nothing wrong with that.

Your question about why some versions of the same tube sound better than others is a really a good one, and the answer for that is, unfortunately, no one really knows. Certainly tubes made back in the "golden age" (40's thru 60's) were generally made to very high standards and companies invested a lot of money and effort in stuff like the machinery to make the tubes and the chemicals they used to make them work. But a lot of tubes that are extremely well made and test very well on tube testers don't sound particularly good in hifi. Good tubes just have a kind of magic like e.g. Stradivarius violins or Chateau Margaux wine that is easy to recognize but hard to quantify. And it is important to remember that most, if not all, the tubes we are using for audio today were invented for a different purpose back in the day. So whether or not they sound good was not what the manufactures were looking for when the were made.

I don't know if that makes things any better, but that's what I've got.





   
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Brian
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Re: Understanding tubes a little better
Reply #4 - 01/11/21 at 03:35:08
 
"G" after a tube designation means glass envelope. I think I remember reading that this letter is used only if the tube was originally made with the metal case.

"A" after a tube designation seems to indicate heavier duty usage than the original of that number. I am unsure if this refers to mechanical shock loads, or if it means the "A" tube handles more electrical power than the original.

Eddie Vaughn once told me 12B4A was a good tube to drive 300B because 12B4A has a high slew rate. What is slew rate and why does 300B require lots of it? What about 12B4A causes it to have a high slew rate?


Brian
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CAJames
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Re: Understanding tubes a little better
Reply #5 - 01/11/21 at 03:41:26
 
P.S. After rereading the OP and Will's typically thorough response the question was why the same tube sounds different, not necessarily better or worse. And Will did a great job enumerating many of variables present when making a tube. I just wanted to add, a very interesting exercise is to open a a tube (wrap in a towel and tap with a hammer) and look at how delicate the cathode and especially the grid is and it makes it a little easier to understand how microscopic variations in different parts of the production could make considerable changes in the way a tube sounds.
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Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Lin
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Re: Understanding tubes a little better
Reply #6 - 01/11/21 at 03:52:29
 
I have been told pentodes must have negative feedback, then I read of a pentode amplifier which does not use negative feedback.  How is that done?

A lot of things can be built and pass a signal, will it perform well and sound good? Don't bet on it.
Triodes have built-in local negative feedback.

PS sometimes only half the story is told, like no global negative feedback = no feedback or part of an amplifier is class A, so the amplifier is class A.
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CAJames
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Re: Understanding tubes a little better
Reply #7 - 01/11/21 at 04:20:55
 
P.P.S. If you are serious about learning about tubes get a copy of the RCA Receiving Tube Manual. It has a ton (almost literally, it is several hundred pages long) of info on tubes, how they work and how they are used in circuits. It is a great reference.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
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Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Denizen
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Re: Understanding tubes a little better
Reply #8 - 01/11/21 at 16:48:59
 
Short of finding a hard copy of the RCA manual you can try tubebooks.org they have a lot of those vintage books on tubes.
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Brian
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Re: Understanding tubes a little better
Reply #9 - 01/12/21 at 03:30:47
 
That tubebooks.org website is a treasure house!
Thank you Denizen.

Brian
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Keith1
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Re: Understanding tubes a little better
Reply #10 - 01/18/21 at 08:58:16
 
Thanks for a marvelous posting!
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Keith1
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Re: Understanding tubes a little better
Reply #11 - 01/18/21 at 08:59:54
 
Thanks for the update and quick reply.
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Keith1
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Re: Understanding tubes a little better
Reply #12 - 01/18/21 at 09:01:21
 
This works really well for us, thank you!

upsers
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