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Just ordered a SE84UFO25! (Read 1071 times)
piezoman
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Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
10/02/20 at 17:09:12
 
Took advantage of the 10% discount over the weekend, at 12:12am the first day (today). My strategy is to get the discounted order in asap to get in a very long line, before it gets that much worse  :o  At this point, looking at a Jan or Feb 2021 delivery  :o

I'm going to talk to Steve early next week and make a final decision as to whether to keep the order in or not. I just read thru the 17 pages on the development process for this amp, wow. I didn't do it earlier, since this amp was never on my radar.......until an opportunity I simply couldn't avoid very recently came up whereby a forum member here (Redox) posted a pristine CSP3 25th Anniversary Edition that just got burned in @ about 400 hrs., so I jumped on it. I didn't have a preamp yet in my new system, so it was a huge opportunity......

So I have this fabulous, completely decked out Taboo MK 4 (25th mods, copper Sig caps, XLR inputs with Jensen transformers) which I've fallen in love with. And I haven't even had the chance yet to test out CSP3-25th with it yet.

The sudden out of the blue purchase of the CSP3-25th has now put me on a path on the possibility/probability of mating it with the UFO-25. Isn't this Steve's ultimate offering? After reading the long thread on the development of this amp, it certainly became pretty clear.

One question for Steve is about loudness perception......Taboo MK 4 vs. UFO-25. He may be the only one here who can answer that question (?). According to the development thread, Steve mentioned many times how loud the UFO-25 can be......but I don't know how this actually compares to the Taboo.

There are a lot if reasons to have the UFO-25th Anniversary, particularly if one mates it to the CSP3 25th Anniversary.p (obvious perfect visuals aside).....the Taboo is so damned good though......decisions, decisions.......

Side note: since I also use headphones, I'm going to have to order a set if headphone adapters that mate with the speaker jacks.....that would be an additional outlay approx $200.
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Taboo MK IV-25th
CSP3-25th Anniv. Ed.
ZRock2-25th
ZBIT
Omega Jr. 8XRS towers w/ALNICO driver
Bryston BDA-3 DAC/BDP-2 Media Player
Blue Circle Line Cond.
Audeze LCD-3F
IC's: DSR-II, BC Silver XLR
Cables: ZStyx, DHC-1, Cur
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Lon
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Posts: 17394
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #1 - 10/02/20 at 18:00:24
 
The Taboo and the UFO Monoblocks, both with 25th Anniversary Mods, sound different to me. The Taboo I would say is about 30 percent more powerfull seeming and louder. The Monoblocks have a more refined feel to them and really show me every little change I make in the system, but they're also heard not quite near field but in a closer set up, the Taboo is in a much larger room--though I have had them both in the same room and speakers as a comparison, used them both in the same room and system before I split into two systems.

I have a ZROCK2 in use with each. I'd say the Monoblocks need it just a hair more, but they both are transformed with it.

The Monoblocks get me into a very immersive interactive mode. . . the Taboo boogies. I'm glad to have them both. You'll have an interesting choice ahead of you.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV; Rega RP3 w/25th mods PS Audio: DMP+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls, Statement spkr cbls;Mapleshade:Samson V3; Oppo UDP-205; VooDoo:Cremona+Amati intrcncts, Iso-Pods;headphones:PM1,HD800S,ZMF Ori
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piezoman
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Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #2 - 10/02/20 at 18:33:30
 
Lon, indeed. The add fuel to the fire, I'd have to sell the Taboo meanwhile, in order to fund the UFO-25 purchase.

The difference would have to be very clear, but its all unseen, unheard. You're probably the one member here who has the perspective, other than Steve.

Taboo 30% louder? That's quite telling. Still without the additional weight of the CSP3 at this moment, I've been looking for just a bit more loudness but I can live fine without it if I had to.....most if my library is rendered quite fine in terms of volume, though a good part of that the ZBIT 90%+ wide open and the Taboo about 95% turned up. Steve suggested a 6922 input tube for a tad more gain......indeed it added a touch but still not quite enough in the perfect wo get me according to my ears. And this is in a 12x10 mostly dedicated room where I do listen near field 6x6x8 ft.

With the CSP325, do you think it will get me there? I know I've asked this before, but it wasn't in the context of now hearing the UFO-25 doesn't stack up at all in terms of gain.

Bottom line, in a perfect world I'd love to see maybe another 10% than what I have now, not knowing what a CSP3 will do to the mix of current ZRock2 and ZBIT (4.0v output of the DAC) as additional gain.
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Taboo MK IV-25th
CSP3-25th Anniv. Ed.
ZRock2-25th
ZBIT
Omega Jr. 8XRS towers w/ALNICO driver
Bryston BDA-3 DAC/BDP-2 Media Player
Blue Circle Line Cond.
Audeze LCD-3F
IC's: DSR-II, BC Silver XLR
Cables: ZStyx, DHC-1, Cur
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Archie
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Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #3 - 10/02/20 at 19:08:28
 
While there is no doubt "perceived" loudness, my experience is that other than adding weight, preamps and such don't add loudness since that's defined by the amp at max voltage in, which is always capped.  My loudness went up only with higher efficiency speakers.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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piezoman
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Posts: 334
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #4 - 10/02/20 at 19:36:42
 
Arch, my speakers are 95db efficient. No change will be made there, I love the Omegas.
But I certainly hear you.

Thanks guys. Looks like  the answer isn't what I thought it might be in a UFO-25.

Lon, perhaps a 12AX7 input tube in the Taboo?
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Taboo MK IV-25th
CSP3-25th Anniv. Ed.
ZRock2-25th
ZBIT
Omega Jr. 8XRS towers w/ALNICO driver
Bryston BDA-3 DAC/BDP-2 Media Player
Blue Circle Line Cond.
Audeze LCD-3F
IC's: DSR-II, BC Silver XLR
Cables: ZStyx, DHC-1, Cur
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Lon
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Posts: 17394
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #5 - 10/02/20 at 20:11:04
 
I haven't tried a 12AX7 in the ZROCK2. My experience with the ZBOX in the past (admittedly a differfent animal but geared toward the same tube) was BAD with the 12AX7 and I think I only have one 12AX7 in the inventory now. I might try it out but I don't think it's an answer.

I side with Archie and say that the preamp will add richness (body, heft, density) that will fill in existing volume in a way to make it appear as if you have more volume. It may do the trick for you with the Taboo. And if it does. . . it's my opinion you may feel you need more power with the UFO25. The Taboo Mk IV with the mods definitely sounds more powerful to me than the two Zen amps I've compared them to: a C amp modded by Eddie Vaughn (a former member here) and the SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with the mods, all running with either the HR-1 or the ERR speakers. I am running different speakers than you, not sure how that influences things--but still I think even with another pair the differences would be similar.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV; Rega RP3 w/25th mods PS Audio: DMP+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls, Statement spkr cbls;Mapleshade:Samson V3; Oppo UDP-205; VooDoo:Cremona+Amati intrcncts, Iso-Pods;headphones:PM1,HD800S,ZMF Ori
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piezoman
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Posts: 334
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #6 - 10/02/20 at 20:29:45
 
Thanks Lon. That is really helpful. I so love this Taboo-Omega presentation. With what you and Arch posted in mind, Ill talk to Steve and probably end up cancelling the order.

The delivery on the DAC is a week late and counting, so no listening with the CSP3 in the mix until then.

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Taboo MK IV-25th
CSP3-25th Anniv. Ed.
ZRock2-25th
ZBIT
Omega Jr. 8XRS towers w/ALNICO driver
Bryston BDA-3 DAC/BDP-2 Media Player
Blue Circle Line Cond.
Audeze LCD-3F
IC's: DSR-II, BC Silver XLR
Cables: ZStyx, DHC-1, Cur
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Showme
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Posts: 252
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #7 - 10/03/20 at 18:02:12
 
Haq you measured with a dB meter the level you listen? I'm getting all the volume I need with the Anniv amp/ CSP325 combo. It is a good configuration which I was alluding to in your other thread.
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piezoman
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Posts: 334
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #8 - 10/03/20 at 18:37:33
 
Showme, I don't have a meter. I listen at varying volume levels, but if I were to guess what the loudest I like, depending on the music, I'd say in the low 90's decibel range.

Can you fill me in a little more?
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Taboo MK IV-25th
CSP3-25th Anniv. Ed.
ZRock2-25th
ZBIT
Omega Jr. 8XRS towers w/ALNICO driver
Bryston BDA-3 DAC/BDP-2 Media Player
Blue Circle Line Cond.
Audeze LCD-3F
IC's: DSR-II, BC Silver XLR
Cables: ZStyx, DHC-1, Cur
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ArtMan
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Posts: 85
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #9 - 10/03/20 at 19:09:21
 
piezoman,

You can order a sound meter off the internet for no more than $15. It is quite educational to have one.
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Showme
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Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #10 - 10/03/20 at 19:26:41
 
Artman’s right. I just downloaded an app for my phone. Interesting.
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piezoman
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Posts: 334
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #11 - 10/03/20 at 21:26:27
 
Lon's comment on his Taboo-25th being 30% louder than his UFO-25  monoblocks says alot to me. I'm hoping to find a way that my Taboo is about 10% louder as it stands. Perhaps the new CSP325 will provide some sense of that in terms if its tribal characteristics.......it just may.....still waiting on my way late DAC to deliver so I can find out.

I'm still going to talk to Steve, but its apparent the UFO-25 is going to fall short....Ill wait and see what Steve says to make my final decision, as it stands today its not looking good.

I put the conditional order in after reading that long thread on development, and so much was said on volume.....my speakers are 95db efficient, which fall within Steve's parameters on the efficiency needed to enjoy this amp at higher volumes, but again what Lon told me is quite telling.

The notion of a matching 25th anniversary edition amp to match my new preamp is really compelling, after all the we 2 units are Steve's epitome, but if it's not a clear winner over the Taboo in terms if what I need, ill have to cancel the order....the Taboo as I've ordered it has so much going for it, damn does this thing perform.
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Taboo MK IV-25th
CSP3-25th Anniv. Ed.
ZRock2-25th
ZBIT
Omega Jr. 8XRS towers w/ALNICO driver
Bryston BDA-3 DAC/BDP-2 Media Player
Blue Circle Line Cond.
Audeze LCD-3F
IC's: DSR-II, BC Silver XLR
Cables: ZStyx, DHC-1, Cur
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piezoman
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"If it ain't
broke, fix it!"

Posts: 334
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #12 - 10/03/20 at 21:42:00
 
Guys, thanks for the prompt.....Ill check in a decibel meter.
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Taboo MK IV-25th
CSP3-25th Anniv. Ed.
ZRock2-25th
ZBIT
Omega Jr. 8XRS towers w/ALNICO driver
Bryston BDA-3 DAC/BDP-2 Media Player
Blue Circle Line Cond.
Audeze LCD-3F
IC's: DSR-II, BC Silver XLR
Cables: ZStyx, DHC-1, Cur
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Archie
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Posts: 2059
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #13 - 10/03/20 at 21:49:13
 
I've done a lot with my system and honestly, the only true volume gain has come from more efficient speakers.  I went from 92.5dB HR1s to 100dB F15 in big baffles and the difference was staggering.  I went from often maxing things out to can't imagine maxing things out.

If you are set on speakers, have you considered a more powerful amp?

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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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piezoman
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Posts: 334
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #14 - 10/03/20 at 22:36:58
 
Archie, definitely not interested in anything more powerful. I want to ride out my life in either SET or SEP.

Speakers.......these Jr XRS towers are perfect for my tastes.

75% of my files are well more than adequate, its the other 25% where my 10% gain would be nice......I could just delete them and minor issue solved.

As Lon mentioned, maybe the virtues of the CSP35 will fill out a sense of additional density and weight that will fit th be bill.

Soon we'll see.......Ill report then.
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Taboo MK IV-25th
CSP3-25th Anniv. Ed.
ZRock2-25th
ZBIT
Omega Jr. 8XRS towers w/ALNICO driver
Bryston BDA-3 DAC/BDP-2 Media Player
Blue Circle Line Cond.
Audeze LCD-3F
IC's: DSR-II, BC Silver XLR
Cables: ZStyx, DHC-1, Cur
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Archie
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Posts: 2059
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #15 - 10/03/20 at 23:15:43
 
The solution is obvious.  Get 2 SE84UFO25s and bi-amp!   Grin
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods) -- currently not in use
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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piezoman
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broke, fix it!"

Posts: 334
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #16 - 10/04/20 at 00:47:26
 
Ha!  ;)
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Taboo MK IV-25th
CSP3-25th Anniv. Ed.
ZRock2-25th
ZBIT
Omega Jr. 8XRS towers w/ALNICO driver
Bryston BDA-3 DAC/BDP-2 Media Player
Blue Circle Line Cond.
Audeze LCD-3F
IC's: DSR-II, BC Silver XLR
Cables: ZStyx, DHC-1, Cur
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Dominick
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Still like that old
time Rock and Roll!!

Posts: 407
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #17 - 10/04/20 at 08:27:47
 
Well....after 7 years of being part of the Decware family, I finally just put my order in for the SE84UFO25 as well!!  😃😃

When I attended Decfest 2 years ago, the magic of the Zen amp made my head spin, paired with DNA2.  

I will be running them with my ERR speakers and fed by my ZStage as a low level preamp.  While I was a bit concerned since my ERR’s are like 90 dB efficient, Steve has stated multiple times that the Zen amp will play louder than you think.  

For me...I normally play Jazz, Big Band, and various types of single instrument music like the guitar, piano, and saxophone music. Based on what other forum members have indicated, I should be fine at the volume level I normally listen.

I have taken some decibel readings and enjoy music in the mid 80’s range.   While I do love playing some music loud, in the mid to high 90’s, I know that at those levels, the Zen amp will fall short.  In those scenarios, I’ll just run my Yamaha SS amp into my ERR’s or my Klipsch The Three BT speaker to rock out.  

Point being that after you hear how musical and transparent the 25th Zen amp plays, you start to care less about the volume loudness as you are captivated by the music.  

Eventually I think buy more efficient speakers, or buy another 25th down the road to run as mono’s at 6 wpc, which is what the radial ERR’s/ HR-1 probably need to shine to play at higher volume levels.  Or I can possibly sell my ZSTAGE down the line and buy the CSP3-25th to add more substantial gain.  That may be enough to where a 2nd 25th ZEN amp may not be necessary.

Either way I am stoked that I finally get opportunity to own one of these special amps.

Dom
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iMac 7 or Google Chromecast Audio, Schiit Bifrost True Multibit DAC, My Audio Cables [MAC] Ultra Silver+ Cables, ZSB, ZSTAGE [Beeswax Caps], DAG Cables, Yamaha THX SS Receiver, Rega P3 Turntable, Velodyne Dual Firing Sub, Decware ERR Radials [Bubbinga Wood].
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HockessinKid
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Posts: 536
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #18 - 10/04/20 at 13:21:46
 
Congratulations Dom!!! I know it's been a long wait already. Hope things go easily with all of your home renovations too. Great to have something special to look forward to in early 2021 as I think most of us want to wipe 2020 from our collective memory.

I'm sure you'll really enjoy the amp and hope the time flies by quickly.

HK
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Dynavector 20x2 cart + MWI PH 9.0 phono pre> ZROCK2-25th mods OR MWI modified Cambridge CNX V2 streamer/DAC > CSP3-25th mods preamp > ZMA-25th mods amp > PI Audio UberBUSS PC > Omega SAHO XRS or Caintuck Lii15 speakers > various cables
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Dominick
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Still like that old
time Rock and Roll!!

Posts: 407
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #19 - 10/04/20 at 18:08:22
 
Hi Roger...thank you!!  Yes it’s been a long time coming for sure.  There’s a good chance that the house will be under construction when I get the amp.  I actually had to tell Sarah in the notes to call me before it ships...I may have to redirect the amp to my parents house.  My ERR’s would then be in storage, so maybe I’ll buy a pair of Tiny Radials to keep me busy while the house is being built. The good thing is that the amp would be well broken in when I move back into the house.

To keep the bride happy, I ordered the amp with the Zebra Wood to match the home decor.  

I will start buying some tubes to stock up with and roll like the Sophia Acqua 274 rectifier and a few others.

Dom



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iMac 7 or Google Chromecast Audio, Schiit Bifrost True Multibit DAC, My Audio Cables [MAC] Ultra Silver+ Cables, ZSB, ZSTAGE [Beeswax Caps], DAG Cables, Yamaha THX SS Receiver, Rega P3 Turntable, Velodyne Dual Firing Sub, Decware ERR Radials [Bubbinga Wood].
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alper_yilmaz
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Posts: 316
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #20 - 10/05/20 at 09:40:58
 
I used to have a TABOO mkIII and I am not sure how different it is than the mkIV volume- and tone-wise, but even though there might be a slight difference in volume between the TABOO and UFO25 (30% as per Lon), I find the UFO25 much more balanced and therefore significantly better in the bass department.  Because of that, it has always given me the impression that it is louder (even though it is not).  When I first received the UFO25 back in the day, I was shocked to hear it the first time I hooked it up with my relatively inefficient speakers.

Of course, TABOO having the headphone option is great if you are into the cans.  I used mine with a pair of Audeze LCD-2's but it turns out that I am never a big fan of listening to music that way, so both units were sent to a gentleman in Sweden (I hope he is still in love with that setup)!
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Mac Mini with Roon, Rega RP6, Rotel RCD-1070 & Marantz CD6005; Hegel HD30 & Copland DAC215; Decware SE84UFO25, Decware SE34I.2+ & Copland CTA405; ProAc D28, B&W DM630 & Rega RS1; Stein and BlackNoise filters; DH Labs power, interconnect and speaker cables
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piezoman
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broke, fix it!"

Posts: 334
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #21 - 10/05/20 at 16:35:49
 
Thank you alper

I remember reading in the UFO-25 development thread where Steve mentioned he can machine a pair if headphone adapters that insert into the speaker jacks for $200.
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Taboo MK IV-25th
CSP3-25th Anniv. Ed.
ZRock2-25th
ZBIT
Omega Jr. 8XRS towers w/ALNICO driver
Bryston BDA-3 DAC/BDP-2 Media Player
Blue Circle Line Cond.
Audeze LCD-3F
IC's: DSR-II, BC Silver XLR
Cables: ZStyx, DHC-1, Cur
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Lon
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worthless!"
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Posts: 17394
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #22 - 10/05/20 at 17:57:43
 
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV; Rega RP3 w/25th mods PS Audio: DMP+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls, Statement spkr cbls;Mapleshade:Samson V3; Oppo UDP-205; VooDoo:Cremona+Amati intrcncts, Iso-Pods;headphones:PM1,HD800S,ZMF Ori
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Lon
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worthless!"
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Posts: 17394
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #23 - 10/05/20 at 21:41:02
 
Lon wrote on 10/05/20 at 17:57:43:

I haven't found this to be really true, even in general--there are bright copper cabling and warm and mellow silver. Many factors are likely in play.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SE84UFO3-25th x2, CSP3-25th.Taboo Mk IV; Rega RP3 w/25th mods PS Audio: DMP+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls, Statement spkr cbls;Mapleshade:Samson V3; Oppo UDP-205; VooDoo:Cremona+Amati intrcncts, Iso-Pods;headphones:PM1,HD800S,ZMF Ori
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piezoman
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"If it ain't
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Posts: 334
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #24 - 10/06/20 at 16:06:30
 
Hopefully I'll be talking to Steve today for a final determination.

I HATE the idea of selling my Taboo, but at the moment I'm kind of leaning for the UFO-25th to mate with my CSP3-25th.......we'll see.

I will say that I finally was able to make a cursory listen to the CSP3-25th with the Taboo MK IV-25th last night. It was delirious! A big change from no preamp. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. The CSP3-25th stays forever. And plenty sense of volume!
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Taboo MK IV-25th
CSP3-25th Anniv. Ed.
ZRock2-25th
ZBIT
Omega Jr. 8XRS towers w/ALNICO driver
Bryston BDA-3 DAC/BDP-2 Media Player
Blue Circle Line Cond.
Audeze LCD-3F
IC's: DSR-II, BC Silver XLR
Cables: ZStyx, DHC-1, Cur
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HockessinKid
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Posts: 536
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #25 - 10/06/20 at 17:03:05
 
Mark,

Whatever you do, just don't listen to a modified Zen Mystery Amp........😊. Then you'll really have difficulty deciding.

HK
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Dynavector 20x2 cart + MWI PH 9.0 phono pre> ZROCK2-25th mods OR MWI modified Cambridge CNX V2 streamer/DAC > CSP3-25th mods preamp > ZMA-25th mods amp > PI Audio UberBUSS PC > Omega SAHO XRS or Caintuck Lii15 speakers > various cables
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Dominick
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Still like that old
time Rock and Roll!!

Posts: 407
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #26 - 10/07/20 at 13:45:37
 
Roger,

I can only imagine how your 25th modded ZMA sounds.  Between that and the newly modded Cambridge DAC that’s on its way, your system will be nothing short of amazing!!  

Dom
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iMac 7 or Google Chromecast Audio, Schiit Bifrost True Multibit DAC, My Audio Cables [MAC] Ultra Silver+ Cables, ZSB, ZSTAGE [Beeswax Caps], DAG Cables, Yamaha THX SS Receiver, Rega P3 Turntable, Velodyne Dual Firing Sub, Decware ERR Radials [Bubbinga Wood].
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piezoman
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"If it ain't
broke, fix it!"

Posts: 334
Re: Just ordered a SE84UFO25!
Reply #27 - 10/16/20 at 15:00:44
 
Unfortunately I had to cancel.

Finances took an unexpected hit, and luxury items are the absolute first to go.

Hopefully late next year.
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Taboo MK IV-25th
CSP3-25th Anniv. Ed.
ZRock2-25th
ZBIT
Omega Jr. 8XRS towers w/ALNICO driver
Bryston BDA-3 DAC/BDP-2 Media Player
Blue Circle Line Cond.
Audeze LCD-3F
IC's: DSR-II, BC Silver XLR
Cables: ZStyx, DHC-1, Cur
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