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Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers (Read 8160 times)
thethanimal
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Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
04/22/20 at 02:09:10
 
I recently built cabinets for some Audio Nirvana Super 10" full-range drivers, and I've loved the step up over KEF Q100 speakers. I currently have an Integra receiver with Class D amplification and I've been trying to determine which tube amp would be my best bet to pair with the new speakers. I demo'd a PrimaLuna EVO100 integrated amp for a weekend and loved the sound, but it actually had too much power (40W) -- I could only turn the volume knob up to maybe 15% before it was too loud, and one click down was softer than I wanted.

I keep reading about the magic of SET amps, so I've been waffling between the Zen SE84UFO and Audio Nirvana's own range of amplifiers. They have a SET EL34 amp at the same price, and an EL84 Ultralinear for $600. I feel like I'm leaning toward the Zen but I also hear ultralinear amps do a better job with punch and kick in the low end. I'm a drummer, so hearing and feeling all the drums have to offer is a high priority for me.

I'm curious what other forum members here have to offer, especially if you're using Audio Nirvana or Omegas speakers (full-range drivers in bass reflex enclosures). I tried measuring the sensitivity of my speakers but my ears begged for mercy at 92 dB before I could get to 2.83V across the speaker terminals, so I tend to believe the manufacturer's claim that the ANs are ~99 dB/W.

Thanks.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #1 - 04/22/20 at 02:42:03
 
Welcome to the forum.  I'll let others chime in, but thought I would mention that I played drums at our Spring Street Studio in Peoria every week for 10 straight years without missing a single session.  My brain is wired for it.  My ears expect it.  I designed the amplifier.  Decware has broken most of the molds and preconceptions / stereotypes and this amp is a wonderful example of that.

Steve
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maddog07
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #2 - 04/24/20 at 04:29:19
 
First off... there is no such thing as a bad Decware amp.
I remember years ago at a Zenfest having this discussion with Steve.
All Decware amps are good.. it's a matter of pairing with the appropriate speaker.
And ultimately your room, your sources, type of music you listen to and your listening preferences will determine what is best for "you".  Trust your ears.
After all hearing is a "perception" - an individual perception at that.
I have heard all the Decware amps and all the Decware speakers at one time or another.  At Zenfest and/or in friends systems. And combinations of most of them.  And I have owned a few of them as well.  And a few more have passed thru my listening room or currently reside or have resided in close audio buds listening rooms.  I've never heard them perform less than very good.  Synergy is key though, as it is with all audio gear, and Decware is no different in this regard.

All that said, I do have a more than average amount of experience with Audio Nirvana drivers and since you have recently acquired some, I think my experiences might be applicable to you.  So I'll share... YMMV of course.

At this moment, I have Audio Nirvana SCF 15" Ferrite drivers and Audio Nirvana SCF 12" Alnico drivers(I have had some others in the past).  I have used both in Large bass reflex boxes of AN's recommendation and also in a hybrid Hawthorne Audio Trio open baffle.  I had a Decware Rachael initially and I currently own a Torii MKIII (which honestly I may never part with).  The single ended amps have their magical holographic, smooth as butter traits, but the push-pull Torii has speed, hit, dynamics and "life" more like live music being performed right in front of you to my ears.  I too used to be a drummer and I value percussive snap and that visceral feeling of "air being moved".  For me the push-pull Torii just sounds more "real".  There are many that will disagree with me - and that's OK - remember that "preference" and "perception" thing.
The SET amps... are more euphonic. Enjoyable at times for some and preferred all the time for others.  However, I value the more lively sound of push-pull Decware amps - to each his own.  To be honest, I have seriously considered a pair of Decware SET mono's for when I'm in the mood for that type of sound and music that lends itself to that type of amplification.  With the sale going on - now may be the time!!

I can tell you, with a high degree of certainty, that you will never run out of power with the Decware Torii and the AN drivers.  The Ferrite models are more efficient/sensitive than the Alnico's.  Either one gets more than plenty loud with a Torii in a box or mounted in an OB.  
The Alnico's are noticeably smoother sounding than the Ferrites overall.  With the Ferrites mounted in a box, I really couldn't be happy with them long term.  They were just too "forward" and "hot" for my tastes.  I never was able to tune/damp them to my satisfaction in a box.  But they "calm down" significantly when mounted in an open baffle.  There I enjoy them quite a bit.
The Alnico's, on the other hand, mounted in the big 5.6 cu.ft. reflex box recommended by CommonSenseAudio, are very nice. I've never tried to measure them scientifically, but I have a good hunch, they have a 50-60hz hump when tuned per Dicks' recommendation. Whatever the technical reason, they reproduce nearly all music I've ever played through them, driven by my Torii, in a most musical, natural, tonally saturated and juicy manner, that draws you into the music and makes you just want to sit and listen for hours.
 
One time I actually put one 15 Ferrite in one OB baffle and the 12" Alnico in the other OB baffle.  Right out of the gate, you will notice that the Ferrite is significantly louder/more sensitive.  When you hear the two side by side like this, even adjusting for volume differences, the Alnico driver sounds "lifeless" compared to the Ferrite.  However, when you use the two Alnico's together and listen to them normally, they sound very good in the OB's as well as the reflex box.  Truth be known, perhaps the Ferrites are a bit unnaturally "hyped up".  Though used in an OB, I find them quite to my liking as do most of the phile's who have passed thru my listening room. As long as they are driven by my Torii or another Decware amp.

On the Decware Torii.  I have listened to it on Tekton Lore S', a couple of Omega's, some Gallo's, Avantgarde Duo's... and several others.  I have a friend who sold his BAT mono's after hearing my Torii drive his Avantgarde's.  Yes.. the Decware amps are right at home in this league.

You have probably seen a lot of discussion about the Wild Burro Betsy driver as used in the Caintuck Audio Betsy baffles.  I have a pair of those too.  Yep.. the Torii sounds wonderful on them also.  However, the Betsy's are too small to light up my large listening room.  But in a normal sized room... Betsy baffles may be all a person would desire.
I actually have a rather rare version of the Betsy drivers, know as the "Betsy W.O.W." - Betsy without whizzer.  These paired to a high-passed Dayton Audio AMT Pro tweeter do it for me in a big way.  Much more so, than regular Betsy's by themselves.

I also picked up a pair of Lii Audio F15's last fall.  These are "impressive" drivers.  I heard them for long periods of time at last years Zenfest.  They are significantly different than the AN drivers I have.  I am in fact, right at this moment, building some mounting plates to put these drivers in my Trio baffles in place of the AN 15" Ferrites.  I have a hunch, I'm going to like these a lot.  If you did not already have the AN 10's, I'd steer you toward the Lii's I think.

On 10 inch full-rangers; Also, last fall at the Decware Zenfest, I listened to the Lii Audio Crystal 10's in the Lii cabinets at great length and driven by several of the Decware amps.  I can say this, with confidence, that the Lii Audio Crystal 10's, in Lii's cabinet, have the "most" and "best" upper frequencies of any full range, crossover-less single driver I've ever heard.  They were about as airy, open and refined as the best dome tweeters in existence.  All other full-rangers sound "coarse" above 6khz or so by comparison.

I could see a future project of Lii Audio Crystal 10's high passed with a cap and augmented on the bottom by my four Augie's. Who knows?  This quest never ends as far as I can tell....

Since I discovered crossover-less full-rangers, Decware and subsequently boxless, open baffle speakers to mount the full-rangers in, I have been more "content" than I ever have in over 40 years of chasing the audio holy grail.
My only complaint with full-rangers is dispersion in the upper frequencies.  And the larger the driver, the worse this is.  The 12" and 15" drivers have that "head in a vice" perfect spot you need to be in for best imaging.  They actually sound better, the farther away from them you get.  I guess the sound has more time to disperse and blend the farther away you are.  Mounting them in an OB, definitely helps "open up" the sound as opposed to mounted in a box, but this aspect still drives me nuts.  But I like everything else they do!

What I have experienced by adding the AMT tweeter to the Betsy W.O.W.'s is a vast expansion of air and the "space" that the sound seems to emanate from.  I am quite smitten by this characteristic.
I'm already working on my next configuration in my head. As soon as I get the Lii F15's into my OB's and have some time to live with them for awhile, I can see me trying to incorporate the AMT tweeter with the F15's.  Perhaps mounted right in front of the F15's.  A semi-coaxialish type of mounting, if I can find a way to make it work.  There may be sensitivity issues too large to overcome between the drivers - it's just an idea that popped into my head.

I have another set of empty, nice black lacquered reflex cabinets that used to be Definitive Technology BP-20's.  I can't let these go to waste!  I need to  come up with some drivers for these.  Maybe some Mark Audio Alpair's or something like that.  I'm sure I'll think of something... so many ideas - so little time!

In summary... I don't think you can go wrong with a Decware amp.  It comes down to what you, personally like the best.  The reason my first Decware amp was a Rachael... was from Steve's recommendation.  I got it a little prematurely before I had my first DIY Audio Nirvana project done.  And judged it paired with some "well known" big name manufacturers speakers.  In retrospect, I wish I hadn't jumped the gun.  And I wish I still had the Rachael (SE34I).  I think this is kind of the Decware "go to" amp.  Perhaps you should try to find a way to audition one of these with your AN's.

Enjoy the Music...
Smiley
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
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thethanimal
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #3 - 04/26/20 at 04:28:31
 
Thanks for the detailed response. Unfortunately the TORII amps are about double my budget.
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Donnie
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #4 - 04/26/20 at 13:20:16
 
theanimal,

I think what maddog is trying to tell you is that you won't go wrong with any Decware amplifier.

If your budget is around $1500 don't sweat it. Order yourself up a SE84UFO2 and be happy for the rest of your life.

Just hang out here with us and learn of all the different ways you can tube up your amp to tune it to your taste.

Or keep it just the way that you bought it and just enjoy yourself with it.

When you get equipment as good as Decware you learn how seemingly small changes can really increase your enjoyment. The differences of  cables and things like that can be heard and enjoyed.

Amplifiers can be like sex, anything over 2(watts) gets overly complicated and harder to get pleasure from.

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Geno
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #5 - 04/26/20 at 14:18:35
 
With the efficiency rating of the Audio Nirvanas, you should be fine with the SE84UFO and 2 watts. The only reason you might not be happy is if you like to listen to really loud music. What kind of music do you listen to?
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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hdrider
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #6 - 04/26/20 at 15:49:11
 
Welcome to the forum. I agree with what has been said above. I started with the basic 2 watt amp to test the waters and ended up selling everything else and now have an amazing, consistent system that brings us more joy than all the other gear we've had in the house. Read some of Steve's papers, ask questions. Unless you are looking for ear bleeding levels, you will never experience better sound. Keep us posted on your journey and happy listening, Chris.
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CSP3, Rachael, ZP3, ZMC 1, Sony ES Bluray, Schitt Bitfrost DAC,Sota Star TT w/ FR-64, Hana SL Low Output Moving coil, Omega 7XRS Mk 2 walnut, DeepOmega 8 sub, Morrow Audio PH3 and MA3 IC's, Gamma Electrostatic phones.
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thethanimal
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #7 - 04/26/20 at 22:58:09
 
Geno, I listen to everything: Tool and Dream Theater to Mozart and Philip Glass to Tony Rice and Avett Brothers to Kendrick Lamar. I’m not concerned about loudness; if the music hits 75 dBA my wife tells me to turn it down but if she’s gone I only get it up to about 80 dBA, so I know 2 watts will be enough. I’m just waffling on the punch and control in the bass, since most opinions seem to lean toward PP for that. I can’t afford Decware PP so I’d have to go with something else for PP. But right now I’m a hair’s breadth away from going all in and ordering the SE84UFO all mod’d up to see what this SET thing is all about.
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thethanimal
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #8 - 04/26/20 at 23:09:25
 
hdrider, if you started with the 2 watt amp what led you to using the Rachel now? I would have thought your Omegas would be efficient enough, but maybe you have a really large room?
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Lon
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #9 - 04/27/20 at 00:00:22
 
I had Torii Mk III and Mk II and went to SE84UFO3 Monoblocks with the 25th Anniversary Mods . . . and I can honestly say I don't miss the Toriis and I don't have any complaints about bass and "punch" at all!

And the single-ended benefits in mid-range and treble etc. make me now definitely prefer it to push pull.

Just my experience and two pennies.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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hdrider
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #10 - 04/27/20 at 00:38:43
 
thethanimal- I bought the 2 watt as a kit, at the time I had a whole different system and some Sequerra 4 way speakers that had crossovers with more components than you could imagine. But the 2 watter drove them and it showed me that SET was the path I was going to go. It did drive the Omega's fine when I got them, but I had always had a soft spot for Rachael and after I found out I could use 807's I was in heaven. The amp and speakers you are looking at will take you to a whole new heaven. Keep us posted and happy listening, Chris.
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CSP3, Rachael, ZP3, ZMC 1, Sony ES Bluray, Schitt Bitfrost DAC,Sota Star TT w/ FR-64, Hana SL Low Output Moving coil, Omega 7XRS Mk 2 walnut, DeepOmega 8 sub, Morrow Audio PH3 and MA3 IC's, Gamma Electrostatic phones.
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thethanimal
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #11 - 04/27/20 at 04:09:17
 
Thanks for the insight everyone. I just pulled the trigger: SE84UFO with capacitor and bypass mods and a DHC-1. Now the wait begins!
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Geno
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #12 - 04/27/20 at 04:16:56
 
Good choice. Just in case you didn’t know, Decware is running a 10% discount special. If you didn’t get the code entered at checkout, you should be able to give them a call and get that applied.
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(2)SE84UFO(Balanced Monoblocs) OR Sansui AU-222
Crown sub amp
Cambridge Audio CXN(ModWright) • ZBIT
SL-1210MK5(KAB Mods) Soundsmith Aida MKll cart • Darlington Labs MP-7
Otari MX5050-Bll2 R2R
ZLC Power Cond.
Lii Audio PT-10/W-15 in open baffles
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Lon
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #13 - 04/27/20 at 06:36:56
 
Congrats! Here's hoping you have an easy wait! Wink
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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piezoman
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Re: Zen Amp with Omega/Audio Nirvana Speakers
Reply #14 - 04/30/20 at 17:41:33
 
Thethanimal, congratulations! After all Ive read about Decware over the past year, I sold most of my previous system which featured Martin Logan electrostats and a 90 watt Rogue Audio pp tube amp. I went ALL IN on a complete Decware system  featuring a 3 watt Zen Taboo MK 4 SEP amp & Omega Junior XRS with single 6" ALNICO full range driver and am on the wait list just like you.  Good luck!

Brad
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