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ZBIT with passive preamp? (Read 19723 times)
Ellsworth
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ZBIT with passive preamp?
11/14/18 at 01:35:53
 
All,  My system currently consists of a MacMini, Gustard DAC, Tortuga passive preamp, and the 25th Anniversary Zen amp.   My next upgrade priority is the MacMini and DAC.  

However, I thought it might be fun  to take a detour and try a ZBIT between the DAC and the Tortuga passive preamp.  The idea would be to gain more body without losing detail.  

I would assume this should work in my setup.   However, based on others experience, is there any reason for caution or why a ZBIT might now work in my system?  Thanks for any comments.
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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #1 - 11/14/18 at 01:55:32
 
That Tortuga LDR is one helluva piece of gear!  I removed my stepped attenuator in my ZMA and am using the LDR passive to attenuate with the Light Dependent Resistors. What a difference!  One of the best additions in my chain.  Now having the ability to adjust impedance, I can't be without that capability.  

What is your DAC budget?  Only reason I ask, is PS Audio is having a Thanksgiving sale on the DirectStream DAC.  Normally $5999, on sale for $3999.  

Regardless, the ZBIT would be compatible with any DAC you use, as long as it has Balanced out of course.  I don't see any reason not inputing a ZBIT into your chain to soo what affect it has.
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Lon
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #2 - 11/14/18 at 02:13:25
 
I confess that I have no experience with that DAC or preamp. But looking at the specs the balanced output is 5 volts, and being able to utilize that and adjust it could really be beneficial. . . My DAC balanced puts out less than 4 volts and I find every one of them helps my system. Like you I don't see a reason it shouldn't work well with your system.
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Ellsworth
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #3 - 11/14/18 at 02:28:28
 
Thanks for the comments.  The PS Directsream DAC is something' I have had my eye on.  Apparently there is a new OS being released. Based on comments on this board from Lon and others it sounds like , the ZBIT really gives that DAC  a nice boost.

The Tortuga is a really nice piece of gear.      At one point I thought I would run direct from a DAC to the amp but the Tortuga volume control really elevates the sound in comparison
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Palomino
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #4 - 11/15/18 at 00:30:40
 
Hey Jeff,

Were you able to install the attenuator in your ZMA or is it in a separate box?  Looks like it need a low voltage power supply.
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Palomino
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #5 - 11/15/18 at 00:35:08
 
Ells,

I think you will hear a noticeable difference if you upgrade the mini.  I went with an external power supply, SSD and more RAM.

Will recommended an OS upgrade that holds some promise too.

But...I would go the ZBIT route first.  I don't think there was anything special about the laptop/iMac that Steve was playing music off of at the fest and the ZBIT/25th combo was pretty awesome.  I think he also had a pre in the chain.

I assume you are digging your 25th.
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Lon
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #6 - 11/15/18 at 01:38:43
 
Ellsworth, every time I see your name it makes me want to play some Pee Wee Russell (who was Charles Ellsworth Russell). The man was a genius. So thanks for posting and reminding me, I'm playing "Pee Wee Russell Plays Pee Wee Russell" . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pee_Wee_Russell



And yeah, the ZBIT. . . it's a great addition to any system with balanced outputs that otherwise don't get used.
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Ellsworth
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #7 - 11/15/18 at 01:49:26
 
Palomino,  thanks for the response.  I do have a SSD on the mini but don't have a LPS.  With the way prices of digital are coming down, I am reluctant to put more money in the Mac (although I bet it would help lower the noise floor).  Audirvana Plus upsampled to DSD128 really sounds good on this machine.  

Lon,  I happened to listen to Pee Wee Russell (Portraits of Pee Wee) on Monday night.  Great stuff.
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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #8 - 11/15/18 at 03:44:44
 
Quote:
Hey Jeff,

Were you able to install the attenuator in your ZMA or is it in a separate box?  Looks like it need a low voltage power supply.


Hi Pal,
The Tortuga LDR is a stand alone unit that sits between the source and the amp.  It has a built in input switch that can handle up to 3 different sources.  

I removed the Goldpoint stepped attenuator that was installed  in my ZMA.  I now use the Tortuga LDR passive attenuator as the volume control for the ZMA.  The Light Dependent Resistor means of attenuation has created the most linear, non-intrusive, true to life, attenuation I have experienced thus far.  It was a “game changing” moment for me.  Everything improved.

It has its own power supply and I simply plug it into my PS Audio P10 Power Plant.
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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #9 - 11/15/18 at 04:08:29
 
Ellsworth,
I have a Mac Mini with Audrivana installed.  It is a great means of serving network attached audio and also hi-res streaming such as Tidal and Qobuz.  

It is a modest investment.  You definitely should remove the stock power supply and replace it with a reputable LPS.  I installed a TerraDac on my Mini and have not looked back.  It was a worthy investment.  I love Audrivana and it, installed in my Mini with an SSD and 16GB of RAM is glorious.
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Palomino
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #10 - 11/15/18 at 04:22:42
 
Tera Dac is what I bought as well.  $350 maybe??
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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #11 - 11/15/18 at 04:27:36
 
Yeah, it was $300 to $350 if I recall.  Very reasonably priced for the build quality in my opinion.  I have listened to the Mini pre and post LPS.  I will never run my Mini without an LPS.  

The really nice thing is. the installation is rather simple.  No soldering or complex steps.  If you are careful and take your time. then 30 mins should be all you need.
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Palomino
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #12 - 11/15/18 at 12:31:36
 
Jeff, if you get a chance, read Will’s thread in the digital forum on the revolution server OS upgrade.  

I am considering that upgrade but it is based on the Mavericks OS and I am uncertain I want to be stuck on that OS and no more Audirvana upgrades as well.  I’ve considered putting it on m second SSD and switching boot drives.  Sorry to go a little off topic here.
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Ellsworth
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #13 - 11/16/18 at 02:09:04
 
Jeff and Pal,  I will have to give the LPSU another's look.  I would have to get the Uptone Audio conversion kit and then a decent LPSU.  My big hesitation is that I may replace thenMac within 18 months.  It is a tough call.
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Ellsworth
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #14 - 11/26/18 at 01:24:02
 
ZBIT has been ordered.  I will post back in a few months after getting the ZBIT.
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Dominick
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #15 - 11/26/18 at 14:38:55
 
Quote:
I am considering that upgrade but it is based on the Mavericks OS and I am uncertain I want to be stuck on that OS and no more Audirvana upgrades as well.  I’ve considered putting it on m second SSD and switching boot drives.  Sorry to go a little off topic here.


Palomino....I ran into the same issue with my iMac.  I was running Sierra while I was completing the build on my OWC 16 TB Raid Drive.  I had decided to upgrade to High Sierra as soon as it was released to keep everything compatible.

Unfortunately I fell down the rabbit hole and wound up having to upgrade a lot more than just my OS.   The kicker is that this all started with wanting to upgrade Audirvana.  I love Audirvana that much that I couldn’t bear to be stuck without having to upgrade.  FWIW..... the new Audirvana + is awesome!!  You will not be disappointed.  

Right now I have about 4 TB worth of music sitting on an external hard drive,  which is backed up on my Raid Drive.  At some point I want to buy the Mac Mini and make that my dedicated music server.  

Dom

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Palomino
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #16 - 11/26/18 at 16:19:41
 
What version of Audirvana are you running?  I think I am due for an update.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #17 - 11/26/18 at 21:13:36
 

I think I'm going to send you home with one of my Windows based PCs and see what you think.  I'm just not sure I have any more SSD in stock, I sold through with the last batch of prebuilt Audiophile PCs.
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Dominick
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #18 - 11/26/18 at 22:58:28
 
Quote:
What version of Audirvana are you running?  I think I am due for an update.


I am currently running version 3.2.12.    I just checked and this is the most up to date version.
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Palomino
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #19 - 11/26/18 at 23:22:47
 
Ok, thanks.  I will check when I get home.

Raven, we have a lot to cover in the next CDApS, but maybe we should have a PC comparo at a future meeting?  The ultimate Mac vs PC shootout.  

I think I'd have to be running the same software on both machines.
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Palomino
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #20 - 11/26/18 at 23:27:35
 
BTW Ells, the teradak LPSU comes with a power board.  

I did talk to the Uptone guys about buying theirs.  Its rather bare bones.  They are not real hip on using capacitors (like the teradak) to smooth out the power.  Granted, their LPSU is not cheap and should deliver better power to the mini than the Teradak.
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Dominick
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #21 - 11/27/18 at 02:49:22
 
I just took a look at both the Teradak LPSU and UpTone Audio’s LPS 1.2.  Personally I like the UpTone Audio’s supply better.  Has anyone done a side by side comparison to hear the difference between the two?

While I am not in the market right now for a Mac Mini, I plan to get one in the future, after I redo my house.  Figured I would follow along and save this thread for future reference.

Also...if you had to recommend a Mac Mini,is there a specific year that you guys like?   Obviously the Core i7 Chip is the fastest, but is it necessary with using it as a dedicated music server?

Dom
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Palomino
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #22 - 11/27/18 at 04:10:40
 
I think the UpTone is a better unit but it’s more$$.  I’ve not heard of anyone doing a side by side but if it was done it would be on computer audiophile would be my guess.

If you want to upconvert to DSD 128 the extra processing power of the i7 is needed.  I can’t remember the year mine is (2011?) but it’s the last year where the ram was not hardwired into the unit.  It took me a while to find given the demand as a audio machine.  

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Jeff of Arabica
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #23 - 11/27/18 at 06:37:36
 
As I posted prior, I have a 2011 era Mac Mini with the i7 and TeraDak LPS.  I also replaced the Mac Mini's power supply with the supply that accompanied the TeraDak LPS.  I did have an Uptone LPS, but it was for my UltraRendu and not the Mac Mini, so I am afraid I can't offer much in terms of a comparison.  I will say that my TeraDak has been serving me well.  

I too only use this Mini for serving music.  It has 16GB RAM and an SSD for the OS and a 1TB HD for music files.  I also have a RAID with two striped 1TB SSD's directly connected to the Mini via USB for additional music storage.  I have about 35,000 hi-res tracks that my music server manages.  The Mini is installed in my audio equipment rack and is connected to my AQVOX SE audiophile switch and then to my Oppo 205's ethernet port, which I am using as the DNLA point for Audirvana+.  I am incredibly pleased with the results.  
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Dominick
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #24 - 11/27/18 at 14:39:08
 
Quote:
If you want to upconvert to DSD 128 the extra processing power of the i7 is needed.


That totally makes sense.   With me getting the new Teac NT 505.... it will upconvet to DSD 512.  While I’m sure the Teac can handle the upconversion internally, it may have a bottlenecking issue coming out of the Mini if a slower chipset like the i5 was used, which will probably be the weakest link.

Then again....the new 505 has this new “Bulk Pet” technology that is supposed to balance out the transfer.  It sounds good in theory, but it will be interesting to see how it works in real-time....could be snake oil to help justify the higher price tag.

This is their description on Bulk Pet Technology on the Teac Website...

Quote:
”Bulk Pet" USB transfer technology for enhanced audio quality

When transferring large volumes of digital data for Hi-Res audio sources through USB cables using conventional isochronous transfer mode, large variations can occur in the processing loads of the sending computer and the receiving USB DAC.
This can cause sound to drop out and other problems to occur. However, with our new USB transmission technology - dubbed "Bulk Pet" - a fixed amount of data is transmitted constantly, levelling out the processing burden on both devices and contributing to stable data transmission.
Changing the processing burden on the computer directly affects audio quality so users can select the setting they prefer (from four transmission modes).


Thanks Jeff for the info.....your setup is definitely killer.    I’ll have to seek out a 2011 Mini as I go forward.   Having the RAM not being hardwired into the unit is definitely a bonus.
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Ellsworth
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #25 - 11/28/18 at 02:45:52
 
Just to add on, I would definitely recommend an i7 for upsampling to DSD128.  I have a 2012 now but had a 2009 prior (I can't remember the processor).  The 2009 ran out of gas when trying to upsample to DSD.

I don't tinker much with the MacMini but I am a believer in DSD upsampling through Audirvana.  When I get ambitious and have a budget for it, I would like to try upsampling to DSD512.
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #26 - 11/28/18 at 12:38:33
 
Once I got the TEAC Dac I stoppped any DSD upsampling in Audirvana.  I also no longer do any signal tweaks.  Just send the straight signal to the Dac and let it upsample to DSD 512.  I occasionally try different settings on the Teac but eventually gravitate back to DSD 512 because it seems to be the best all rounder.
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HockessinKid
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #27 - 11/28/18 at 15:34:08
 
I am doing the same as Palomino. Upsampling to DSD512 with my ZDAC (Decware modified TEAC 503NT) streaming TIDAL. I use a highly recommended Triode Wire Labs "Discrete" USB cable (https://www.triodewirelabs.com/product/discrete-usb-cable/).

No glitches whatsoever. Digitally streamed music sounds glorious.

HK
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #28 - 11/28/18 at 15:38:30
 
I'm using a Curious Cable usb pigtail into an upton audio regen amber and then some usb cord Raven let me borrow and never asked for it back.

I think I should try removing the regen since so much has changed in my system since I first started using it.

I have heard some triode wire cables and think highly of them.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #29 - 11/28/18 at 18:27:14
 
A couple notes reading through this thread.

Some of the newer i5 processors can handle DSD upconversion, depending on the software used and how efficient the algorithms are. But if you're going to do software processing it's always best for more power. The advantage of software upconversion is that the algorithms can always be changed/upgraded/improved and are easy to try something new. That said, some DACs can have issues with the upconversion - the DirectStream is one of them, and honestly the upconversion in the DS is really good so I use that instead.

The NT-503 only goes up to DSD256 not DSD512.  IMHO, I feel you get the best "lift in quality" or "analogness" when you upconvert to at least DSD128 (AKA 2xDSD). I really haven't seen an improvement in any software or DAC that only does DSD64 (AKA 1xDSD)

If you are using software upconversion *don't* have the DAC convert it as well. Do one or the other, not both. That said, I guess it can't hurt to try say, software upconversion from 44.1 PCM to 96khz PCM, because the DAC might need 96k to go up to a full DSD512.  (if that doesn't make sense, look at the upconversion chart for your DAC - the NT-503 for example only upconverts 44.1 PMC to 11.2Mhz, but does 48k to 12.2Mhz - it might be splitting hairs, but again, depending on the math is might make a difference) Here is the TEAC NT-503 chart for example. Some DACs might not be able to go to their highest conversion rate due to what the input rate is.



Ultimately, try everything and see what sounds good to you. I'm like Palomino, I go bit-perfect into either of my DACs, then let the DAC do the upconversion - they both seem to do better than pretty much any software (to my ears, in my system, YMMV, etc etc)


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Lonely Raven
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #30 - 11/28/18 at 18:32:40
 

Quote:
I think I should try removing the regen since so much has changed in my system since I first started using it.


I can't even remember the last time I used the Regen. I think I parked it after I sold my personal Audiophile PC to someone that really wanted it, and  it was about the same time that PS Audio upgraded the DirectStream DAC OS which gave a bigger improvement than the Regen. But now that I think about it, I've not tried *both* the new OS and the Regen.

The only reason you still have that USB cable, is that I've not been using the Regen! LOL.  Did I loan you my pigtail as well? I'm old and can't remember stuffs.  LOL
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Palomino
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #31 - 11/28/18 at 20:22:09
 
The Curious Cable is mine.
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #32 - 11/28/18 at 22:33:42
 
Cool, mine is probably with my Regen...wherever that is.  :P
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #33 - 11/28/18 at 22:50:32
 
What is the relationship between a spec like 11.2 MHz and 512 DSD?
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will
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #34 - 11/28/18 at 23:56:17
 
I had an interesting set of experiences.

When I first got my 2012 4 core Mini i7, I had been running with a Jitter Bug followed by a 2nd gen (or 3rd...not the iso) Regen, followed by a short Curious Cable. I liked DSD resampling in Audirvana to 11.2, or DSD 256 at the time. My modified Gustard x20pro does not up sample, so can't compare software to hardware, but thought Audirvana did a very nice job with a carefully adjusted filter balance.

Then, doing amp mods I knew would take a long time, I decided to recheck. To keep consistency through a long mod cycle, what was my best sound to stay with? I was always a little on the fence about whether my DAC was better with DSD or PCM, and finally determined I liked 352.8 PCM best, upsampled from Redbook in Audrivana, and the same basic Audirvana settings I had liked for DSD resampling. The DSD was more apparently clean, but the PCM was plenty clean, and more textural and complex, more musical to me.

With a Mac using DoP to transfer DSD, the DSD has to be packed in a PCM stream if I get it correctly. My top DSD level was 256, and since DoP uses a lot of PCM data to carry the DSD, my computer was running its fan a lot. This stuff messes with my dyslexia, but I think it goes something like this Pal. Native DSD 512 would be 22.6 MHz, 1 bit x 44100 Hz x 512 = 22.6 GHz.... which is 2 x 11.2 MHz/DSD 256. For DoP, with a word length of 16 bits used to pack a DSD bitstream, 352.8K x 16 = 5.6 MHz, or DSD 128. So for DoP, the setup needs to be good with 352.8K PCM to create and utilize DSD 128. In turn, 705.6K PCM allows for DSD 256 (11.2 MHz) via DoP and so on. Does that sound right?

I figured all this processing had to have some effect on the sound, though it sounded surprisingly good. But perhaps this helps explain why I was getting more complex sound from the less computer intensive 352.8K PCM? Don't know, but I kept liking it better for the most part.

Then, as Torii IV and CSP3 modifications progressively presented a more complete and complex signal, more fine detail and spacial information changed the picture, refining harder detail into musically complex detail, the Regen setup started sounding worse to me...sort of metallic and mechanical. Different now, but familiar, this was the reason I had added the Jitter Bug originally.

I started liking a prototype USB cable Eric Hider sent me to test best (not his final, but a really nice cable), or my own DIY USB cable, preferring each without the Regen and/or Jitter Bug. Both were made with power and ground separated from data, and I had used both with the Regen, sometimes liking one better, and sometimes the other. Mind you, at this point I had changed to Eric's dBAudioLabs Revolution OS, which was a very nice refinement for digital disappearing into music here, in large part because it was more revealing of subtle information that was there in the files. The OS more revealing, and amps more revealing, the USB treatment that once seemed beneficial sounded off.

This showed up many months ago as I was re-tuning/refining the power supply bypasses in the amps. I had decided to pull all very small bypasses in order to get the best foundation I could with 0.1 uF being the smallest for the most part, and things were getting really good. Finally balanced and beautiful, along with attenuators, resistors, wires, connectors, all was quite good enough to stop. But I knew from before I could get more from bypassing the bypasses. Many tests later, in one position I might have two complimentary 0.1 uF caps that together sounded better than 0.22s I tried alone. Then I started to reveal more very fine detail and spacial info with a single, or combinations of 0.0047, 0.01, and 0.022 bypassing the primary bypasses for a given power supply position.

During this process, as the amps continued to be more revealing and musical, I went from Eric's very nice revealing, transparent, and balanced USB cable, back to my also revealing, but smoother and a little sweeter DIY USB cable. It is made with pure silver in cotton for data, and really good copper for power and ground, those wires separated from the data.

Not sure if any of this will help anyone else, but an interesting ride. As the OS and amps got better and better, I could not use the Regen anymore. I guess the moral of the story is that I consistently find it is best to recheck things now and then to see if previous decisions are still valid.
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #35 - 11/29/18 at 00:23:00
 
Thanks Will.  I owe you a email response.  Appreciate your note.
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #36 - 11/29/18 at 00:47:57
 
You are welcome Palamino!
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #37 - 11/29/18 at 05:04:21
 
Quote:
I am doing the same as Palomino. Upsampling to DSD512 with my ZDAC (Decware modified TEAC 503NT) streaming TIDAL. I use a highly recommended Triode Wire Labs "Discrete" USB cable (https://www.triodewirelabs.com/product/discrete-usb-cable/).

No glitches whatsoever. Digitally streamed music sounds glorious.

HK


Thanks Roger.  I’ll take a look at that cable.  I was originally looking at the Audioquest Carbon USB cable.  

https://www.audioquest.com/cables/digital-cables/usb-a-to-b/carbon

Eric.....thanks for the info on the Dac up conversion.  It makes sense to only do the conversion once.  Once I get the NT-505, it will be interesting to hear the differences between the software vs. hardware conversion.  I would think that the hardware conversion through the DAC will have more of a natural sound.


Will....very insightful post....lots to ponder over.  The journey with digital sound is definitely an interesting one.  
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #38 - 11/29/18 at 11:55:00
 
Dom,

Pete @ Triode Wire Labs may have some discounted "audio show demo" cables available. If interested, shoot him an email at his website.

I just bought a demo pair of Pete's Spirit II interconnects to try. Saved some $ and the cables were fully broken in.

HK
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #39 - 11/29/18 at 15:13:13
 
I've been pondering what to get for a replacement USB Cord, looks like an interesting option. Great thread BTW, lots of great info in all the posts! Thanks All

Best,
Scott
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #40 - 11/29/18 at 15:17:27
 
Yeah, we went off the rails a bit on this one, but some great info.

I tried using the mini to do DSD 128 and switched back to DAC DSD upsampling.  I didn't hear a difference this time.

I also took the regen out of the chain and didn't hear a difference.

Maybe last night I just couldn't hear too well.  Some times when I have a bad day at work I can't let my mind go enough to really listen.  I'll continue trying.
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #41 - 11/29/18 at 16:05:18
 

Great info Will, and I agree with pretty much everything you listed out.

As for DSD info - it's kind of confusing, and remember, it's all digital, so it's all math.

Easiest way to think about it, is when they say DSD 64, that's 64 times CD sampling rate, AKA 1xDSD, or 5.6Mhz. And it just goes up from there. DSD 128 is 2xDSD, or 11.2 and so on.  The NT-503 "only" does 4xDSD, but the 505 Dominick is looking at goes up to 8xDSD.

Like old school memory sticks, 64 -> 128 -> 256 ->512

I haven't had any time to do some listening, nor diagnose my low volume on the DirectStream. Just too busy between work and projects.
But all this discussion is making me want to jump back in and play with the Regen and USB cables again!
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Re: ZBIT with passive preamp?
Reply #42 - 12/01/18 at 01:33:05
 
Quote:
Dom,

Pete @ Triode Wire Labs may have some discounted "audio show demo" cables available. If interested, shoot him an email at his website.

I just bought a demo pair of Pete's Spirit II interconnects to try. Saved some $ and the cables were fully broken in.
HK


Thanks Roger!!  I will reach out to him and see what he has available.  That is definitely a great option.  His cables are definitely top notch.  
Dom
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