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AC Receptacle advice (Read 14040 times)
ginny
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AC Receptacle advice
06/20/18 at 22:49:47
 
I want to replace my 15 yr old *cheapo* recept with new and am looking for advice.

I have scanned the forum topics and did not find an existing recept topic, so pardon me in advance if i missed one.

All advice will be highly appreciated.
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Donnie
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #1 - 06/20/18 at 23:32:27
 
https://www.psaudio.com/products/power-port-classic/

These have been blessed by the descendents of Nikola Tesla's housekeeper. Full of good magic.
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will
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #2 - 06/20/18 at 23:38:45
 
I had a chance to test the first three below at once:

Orange Hospital like from the Hardware Store - a low cost but distinct upgrade. There are much better I think though.

Pass and Seymour cryo'd - I think it is a 5362A 20 amp but can't remember for sure - notably more revealing than the Hospital, but finally just a little hard/clean sounding to me for my main outlet. Smooth and clear, I use this in my modded Audio Brick wall though, feeding my DAC and Audio Computer, so like it, just not perfect balance to me.

Furutech Copper 15 amp cryo'd - My favorite of the above, and very nice receptacle. They have that Furutech warmth that includes plenty of fine detail space and textures. Unfortunately this slight "warm" coloration can be borderline overstated for me whether a Furutech fuse, power cord, or recepticle.... However, it does this really, really well. It was my fav of the group by a fair bit and my main receptacle for may years. I also use two Furutech cables (FP-S032N and SO22N Alpha Nano-Ag-Au), very pure copper with oil and nano particles of silver and gold, also a little "Furutech warm" to me, but I really like them once I adapt. They do everything with great finesse, so I reluctantly respect Furutech's way with transparent warmth if that makes any sense. They clearly listen to what they are developing.

My current favorite:

Mapleshade - Transparent, revealing, natural. Not having a notable tonal signature, it has great natural and complete sound. http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Ultra-Minimalist-Duplex-AC-Outlet/productinfo/AC...
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Steve Deckert
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #3 - 06/21/18 at 02:49:56
 

There are two problems with residential outlets:

A) they only cost $1.00 ea. and consequently have poor consistency when it comes to grip strength and overall quality.  Screw threads become stripped or the wires are just poked into the back which is about the same thing.

B) they are parallel wired as they go around your room.  This means that if there are 5 outlets on the chain and there is a poor connection in the 1st outlet it will effect all 5.  It also means that if the average connection has a resistance value of 1 ohm, outlet #5 will see the resistance the four outlets in front of it.  It also means that if one of the 5 outlets is wired with the ground and neutral reversed, the ground wire from that outlet back to the breaker box will be carrying current.  All of these things are what cause noise, and ground loops which in turn cause hum.

My advise is take your $200 you were going to spend on a re-branded outlet and hand it to an electrician so he can pull a single run of wire between the breaker box and the dedicated outlet for your stereo system.  This will make potentially 5 times the difference in sound quality using a simple $20.00 hospital grade 20A outlet vs. sticking blowmeum plated "audiophile" outlets in your wall.  It would completely make no sense to do only one outlet on the chain, so if your not going to have a dedicated run to a single outlet you better by the 4 or 5 you'll need to replace everything in the chain to reduce the resistance between outlets by as much as possible.  Also plan to unplug everything you have on all the outlets in that chain because every appliance or light or gadget you have plugged in can cause noise on the AC line of that string of outlets.

Steve
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4krow
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #4 - 06/21/18 at 02:57:23
 
There has been no house that I have ever bought or rented that I didn't change out the majority of the AC outlets for those that have superior grip, and generally better quality. In addition to what Steve has mentioned, ANY outlet that has trouble with a load connected through it in your home has the potential of more noise. And yes, the best solution for most of this problem is to run a dedicated line, which gets one of the number ONE spots on the AC panel. In the end, you will save a bunch of money, starting out right, and not trying to find the ghost in the system.
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Brian
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #5 - 06/21/18 at 05:01:17
 
blowmeum ?!

Grin
Grin 
Grin
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will
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #6 - 06/21/18 at 07:43:25
 
I agree, electricity is so fluid, including “adopting” and passing around junk it picks up, a dedicated line and good connections throughout can be big deals. My house got better after I tightened receptacles and circuit breakers.

But in my experience, the many ways wiring and noisy things on the wires can hurt your audio are relative depending on original power quality, wiring quality and tightness, design setup, what else is on the circuits, filters used and where, grounding, etc. With a bad combination of these I suppose it could be hard to hear receptacles!

In my setups, my power was so clean in general, that when I finally figured out that sort of wide voltage level shifts were making it hard to tune the system sound with reliable consistency, higher voltage thickening/darkening, and lower leaning the sound, I had to address it. 119 sounded much different than at 123! So I got a PSAudio P5 and have come to like it set at 118. Now that voltage is controllable I can adjust voltage to tastes and tune with relative reliability for consistent sound. But even with much less push on the tubes, transparency-wise the P5 was a downgrade for me. Though creating pretty smooth and well organized power, the design and parts the P5 is made with effect its sound like anything else in revealing audio, including the receptacles used in it… like changing resistors, caps, wires and connectors in amps can make pretty big differences.

Speaking of the relativity of the electrical quality we start with ….though I have thought a lot about it, I don't have a dedicated line, yet I can hear about any change in my system pretty clearly and the sound is really good.

We live in an adobe house with three different "flat roof" ceiling levels between the utility room and the music room receptacle. With some creative time and effort, I may be able to get a wire across through the small spaces between each of these ceiling and roof levels, but it will take tearing away and rebuilding, or going up through the roof and back with conduit may be needed. So between pretty clean power, and the difficulty of a dedicated line, I have let it slide.

My audio receptacle is the first of 5 outlets in the room, one in the middle with my main desktop computer on it, a couple with walls warts, and one where my wife plugs in her power brick for her laptop....Scary right?

But starting pretty clean; having done progressive power cleaning house-wide; having strengthened the ground; and finally gotten the regenerator and other filters directly in the audio system...power seems good. Differences with noisy things on the lines are pretty subtle. I can hear it at the listening seat with my computer on compared to off, but it is subtle enough that I don’t notice it at my computer chair, loving the music from there too. And before most of my progressive power explorations, the system was quite revealing, though thicker in general from higher voltage, and with a little more obvious noise at times, reducing smooth liquidity some....but it was quite good with rudimentary filtering. This is not to say it would not be better with a dedicated line, I have no doubt it would...have to look more at solving that puzzle.

But if power is good, the system refined and revealing, and if we are used to picking out differences in sound, chances of hearing receptacles seem pretty good. And if power can be improved, including a dedicated line if a good option, receptacle differences will show more.

Hospital grade are better than standard for sure. The Mapleshade I am using now is $70, as is the Furutech I used. So about 50 more than a Hospital grade receptacle...the cost of many single NOS tubes, and much less than many. The Pass Seymour, not sure. I got mine from PiAudio, and guess they are 35 or so now.... So my cost-to-effect tolerance is perhaps a little looser, but if a better receptacle can improve the sound in a particular setting, it could do so for many years.
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ginny
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #7 - 06/21/18 at 12:43:38
 
Thanks for all the GREAT advice, i now have several recepts to choose from from the advice of those who i hold in high regard.

My plan was to already run a dedicated line for the media receptical but have been putting it off.  I knew it would help but not to the detail that you described Steve (thanks for the motivation Wink ) and along with that install 4 can soffit lights in the room (on a separate line of course) as my wife has wanted for a couple years.

What prompted me to start this topic is when I had an interesting discovery tuesday after a severe thunder/lightning storm cruised through the area, in that when i came home from work and turned on the tv to read some headlines while muted and then to turn on the Torii, (and i know this is going to disappoint the audio gods, but i have them both plugged into the same recept) I got no response from the Torii.  After a couple missed heartbeats i thought "damn" that storm just knocked out my Torii.

Checked fuse.....good
Checked voltage of bottom outlet where tv was plugged into....122VAC
Checked voltage of top outlet of same recept where Torii was plugged into....48VAC

While checking the wiring, it appears to be wired as a half hot recept, because the tab between the 2 hot terminals was removed and the hot side of the recept has a hot black wire on bottom terminal and hot red wire on top terminal that must be controlled by a switch somewhere in the room (which we NEVER touch) even if we did, it should provide 120VAC when switched on and zero when off, so that will be my focus this weekend, as my yard work is well past due.

The bad part of this is that we will be without tunes for a couple days until yard work is done and i can get to the root cause.

The good part is that once i am done with this project, I will be once again listening to some fantastic sounds via a dedicated quality recept under some newly installed dimmed soffit lighting, with a happy wife.

And i agree with Brian....Blowmeum...crack me up!

Out of curiosity I googled blowmuem just to see if maybe the urban dictionary had some insight and here is what google found:

Forums - Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
www.decware.com › Forums › AUDIO FORUMS › General Discussion and Support
Aug 22, 2014 - 50 posts - ‎11 authors
... out a way to get somewhere in the middle of the two, it would be a success. I wonder if the quantum chips or the blowmeum is the real secret?

This made me LOL!!! Grin
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4krow
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #8 - 06/21/18 at 20:32:25
 
I would say that Will and I have the same sort of thought process regarding power. Also, the addition of the PS Audio P5 may be the closest to a dedicated line as you will get with out having one. I am a pretty big fan of this concept, given that these units 'regenerate' power, making it almost from scratch and providing a cleaner product in the end. I am all about getting the grounding, connections, and more taken care of properly, as each is additive even at small increments.
These days, I have been using a balanced power transformer made by Balanced Power Technologies. It is rated way above my needs, and has separate secondary windings keeping digital, analog, and other sources separated. It provides balanced power for ny equipment.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #9 - 06/22/18 at 18:43:36
 
I agree with Steve - the biggest power improvement I've done (besides spending $4200 on a P10 Power Plant) was running a home run from the power panel to a dedicated outlet. I wasn't really expecting much, since power improvements don't really make a big difference to me for some reason, but it was startling how much a dedicated, low resistance line made a difference. Bigger than a $1200 power cord, any isolators or filters, or even a $300 outlet or all of that combined. I'd even say it had more impact than the power plant, but I have trouble saying that after spending so much on the damn thing.
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will
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #10 - 06/22/18 at 21:33:17
 
Raven. I think I recall you used silver plated copper like Styx wire, but maybe 10 gauge? Thus the low impedance? Did I get that right? If I can string one here, I think it might have to be a cable like 10 gauge Romex, or better quality wire that is part of a cable rather than 3 separate wires. Any comments or ideas?

Anyone?
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Mark
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #11 - 06/23/18 at 16:55:29
 
As a person who has done some measure of electrical work as it is related to audio, I can offer some advice if you are using an outlet that comes from a sub-panel:

Most sub-panels are wired up wrong... A sub-panel should not have neutral bonded to ground... Neutral should be floated back to the main panel...

The bonding screw in the ground / neutral bar should be removed... Then only neutral [white] wires should go to that bar... You then need to purchase a proprietary accessory grounding bar that mounts inside the panel... There are screw bosses in the panel box for this... You then need to run all the bare ground wires to this special bar...


Why?... Because running two or more separate ground points in a circuit can cause micro-currents to flow in the grounding system, which can cause hum and other artifacts in your audio...


Hope this might help someone...   (m.)
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #12 - 06/25/18 at 17:12:15
 

Awesome info Mark! I've read that somewhere - I think on a page about grounding for audio/studios I've posted a few times before.

Will, Yes, I used the same wire as Zen Styx to run a home run in 10AWG, but then went back and redid it in 8AWG. I didn't really see as big of an improvement going from 10 to 8 - but they key is as low impedance ground as possible. So even doing an 8AWG to ground, then 10AWG for positive and neutral I'm sure would be more than fine.

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4krow
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #13 - 06/25/18 at 18:26:54
 
Mark,
 Great that you brought up that point. "Ground is ground the world around" DOES NOT APPLY. I had much trouble explaining this to seasoned telephone employees every now and then. Finally, when I met those who worked either in a Central office or radio site, did I feel there was the proper understanding and approach for this issue.

LR,
  Well, you have out done my attempt at running a dedicated 10 Ga. Line! It was frustrating enough making a path for the 10 Ga. Romex for even the short distance of about 35 ft. in my antiquated home. Still, when considering some of the original wiring, anything would be considered an improvement. Just curious, was your wire all under one sheath, or separate conductors?

 Let me add for the sake of the topic, that I found the PS Audio Power Ports to be just the ticket.
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will
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #14 - 06/25/18 at 20:36:08
 
Thanks folks. Good information! I keep looking at my convoluted  ceilings (at least for pulling wires), and drilling through adobe, I get buffaloed. I guess I should probably just start and see what I get into. I don't think I want the extra connections of a sub panel, probably just come from the main box to a good outlet and be done. Is that a bad idea?
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #15 - 06/28/18 at 22:06:13
 
4krow, my breaker box is in my garage, which is actually under the house as part of the basement. My Home Theater/Listening Room is right above the garage. Since I was running power outlets in conduit around the garage, I simply used 3/4" instead of 1/2" and ran the Zen Styx type milspec wire inside the conduit along with other circuits. I didn't have the space, otherwise I would have even run a separate conduit just to keep the garage workshop power lines separate from the audiophile power lines, but this worked amazingly well.

And my Engineer friend who helped me bend the conduit (it's an art, and he's seriously an artist) mentioned a few times that I could just use the conduit as my ground...and he looked at me funny when I said "yes, but I need a low resistance ground and don't want my audio ground to share with other devices". I also pointed out that the conduit effectively works like a shield for my power lines.

I got a very similar confused, almost angry look when I asked the guy who installed my breaker panel if he could measure the resistance to ground, and if he could help me with, or suggest installing additional grounding rods to further lower my resistance to ground. He literally scowled at me and I could tell he was biting back comments trying to tell me how stupid I was. (sigh)

So you got your install completed? How's the sound improvement?
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Steve Deckert
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #16 - 06/30/18 at 02:51:01
 

A friend of mine, who attended some of the first DECFESTS, was a commercial electrician / audiophile who took his breaker panel and had the rails silver plated as well as the breakers.  He then ran ZSTYX from the panel to the meter which was also silver plated, and from the meter to the pole pig.  Also ran ZSTYX from the pole pig to the ground rod at the pole, which was silver plated.

Inside he ran more ZSTYX from the panel to a dedicated outlet in his room.  I'm surprised he didn't commission a custom pole pig : )

Anyway, he wins the award, just proving that audiophiles are indeed sick people.

Steve
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #17 - 06/30/18 at 02:54:02
 

I suspect a lot of the "hum problems" that audiophiles have are related to my first post and compounded by improper bonding at the panel. We already know that if there aren't any problems, there isn't any hum - at least with Decware gear, some of the quietest tube gear on the planet.

Steve
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ginny
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #18 - 06/30/18 at 19:20:18
 
Although I would love to run ZSTYX as my dedicated stereo line, it would not fit my budget unfortunately.

What would be a good alternative Brand/Make/gauge of wire to use. I need approx 70 ft. of wire and quality recept.

I wouldn’t think standard romex house wire would be recommended (or would it) which is why I am asking “what would you use “.

Since I will be doing this myself, would $200-250 cover the recommended wire and recept.
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #19 - 07/05/18 at 15:34:40
 
Well, I have a spool of 8AWG Zen Styx type wire left. I've been slowly selling it to decware friends for $0.50 a foot over what I paid for it to pass on my great deal.

You could save a bunch by replacing the ground wire with 8AWG Zen Styx type wire, then use 10AWG off the shelf stuff for the hot and neutral.

I could ship you a single 70' run of 8AWG for $225. Feel free to message me if that's of interest to you. I think I have about 100' left of my 500' spool, but I'll measure to make sure.

After reading Steve's post, I'm wanting to pull my buss bars on my panel and have them re-plated in Silver. LOL
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #20 - 07/06/18 at 13:08:12
 
In hopes of helping myself and others following this thread, I thought I would post this up because it may apply to many current panels.
I don't want to Hi-Jack the thread so please let me know if this is more appropriate as a separate post.
The picture below is my main panel and a sub panel I added which runs outside to power a hot tub and a pond pump for a waterfall. this outside box is located only about 45' from the (2) Listening Room outlets I want to isolate through a run under a deck under a covered porch. This secondary outside junction doc has room for breakers and could be re-grounded...(don't know if that is recommended).
The first question is:
Given the way this main panel and sub are wired can I accomplish, through an electrician, the rewiring of grounds in the sub-panel that Mark describes above, then continue on and do my dedicated run to my outlets in LR?
Thanks in advance, gotta tackle this, I got hum in my LR lines from rheostats and all kinda things in the house!

Best,
Scott

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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #21 - 07/07/18 at 03:45:47
 
LR,

 My installation has been done years ago. I would add that when it comes to grounding, I used the well pipe that goes down 25' into the ground. It hits water at about 11'. My house is also completely surrounded by a concrete slab that I poured to help save the foundation. Of course, I used rebar all the way around, and yup, it's tied to the grounding system as well, but only at the incoming power location.
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Re: Better Worded Question on wiring Panel
Reply #22 - 07/07/18 at 13:17:45
 
 OK, I think I have my head better wrapped around this, the questions I have are on the photo. This sub-Panel runs outside to another box within 45' of my run to isolated LR outlets.
 One additional question when I get to the outside panel for my run, would it be beneficial to tap into a solid copper ground that is 2 feet away from outside box that runs from my incoming propane line, which is then ground to my outside meter?
 I hope this simplifies things, any input appreciated!
Best,
Scott
(not to worry, I have a guy who is going to help with the actual hook-up, I plan on living long enough to see this through! Shocked)


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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #23 - 07/08/18 at 01:53:00
 
Hello: The separate grounding bar should have its own mounting bosses and thusly is self-bonded directly to the chassis of the breaker panel...  


All the sub-panels I've seen have a set of female threads in the back of the box somewhere for this...


Note; If you're running a sub-sub-panel, the neutral should be floated all the way back to the main distribution panel... The white neutral wires and bare ground wires should only be bonded together in the main distribution panel...
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Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #24 - 07/08/18 at 03:17:18
 
Hi Mark,

Can't thank you enough, exactly what I was wanting to confirm, and yes, I'm running a sub-sub panel which is the one outside saving me additional buried cable and another intrusion through the house.
Made my night, I picked up my run of 10AWG, addition grounding copper, conduit, boxes etc, then ordered Hubbell HBL5362 Cryoed/Cooked Receptacles from cable dyne.com.
Thanks Again...

Best,
Scott
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Woo WA6, Sennheiser HD660s
RoomTreatments,LineFeed,DHC1’s,DSR’s,ZENST,TriodeWireLabs,TimberNation Maple Plats
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ScottNC
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Posts: 335
Re: AC Receptacle advice
Reply #25 - 07/13/18 at 16:55:59
 
Finished up my dedicated run, installed one single gang, then paralleled over to a double gang and made myself a 10g very flexible 14 foot double gang extension box for my equipment table all with Hubbel Cryoed Recepticals. Only one comment, working with 10g wire in conduit, walls and boxes sucks...it’s pretty stout stuff! Smiley
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Woo WA6, Sennheiser HD660s
RoomTreatments,LineFeed,DHC1’s,DSR’s,ZENST,TriodeWireLabs,TimberNation Maple Plats
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