I have a concern about low wattage amplifer solutions based on 'so called' solid evidence that in fact very powerful SS amps are a potentially better solution for hi-fidelity.

Valves usually sound best because they clip gracefully compared to transistors, when trannies clip they clip hard and therefore sound bad. But if you had a transistor amp powerful enough (and we are talking a good 500 Watts for example) clipping never occurs on musical passages and therefore the weakness of transistors is all but eliminated.

But at the same time - Decware do flea / low powered amps that somehow sound wonderful. So do we conclude that if you want to own a regular amp below, say 200 Watts, tubes sound better because the clipping is far less harsh (but nevertheless they 'do' clip) - but above 200 Watts (or even more) transistors are a better choice as they don't have a chance to clip at all?

I am no expert but I would love to hear a little bit of an explanation from a designer of fantastic low powered amps.

There are other differences besides just power.  Check out some of Steve's "White Papers" and his non-use of negative feedback plus the preservation of Even Order Harmonics.  There is a good explanation of the latter here:  https://www.decware.com/newsite/TORII.htm

BTW, I decided to "believe" Steve and his many satisfied customers and jumped in with both feet several years ago.  No regrets!  

You can read and theorize all day long but the only way you'll believe is to jump in.  I went through that process.  Had a h**l of a time getting to the point of deciding to try, coming from high power ideology.  

Eventually I decided that the only way to know or believe was to jump in.  My system now is all Decware the amp being the SE84UFO2.  If you read some of my posts you'll see that after jumping in I still had a problem with believing... believing my ears and senses.

Eventually I just settled back, started to enjoy and finally stopped fighting it.  It's now fun which it should have been from the beginning.

Hey Trip....Yup! that paper sums up my experience. I don't ever need to turn my Zen up past 9PM. And, in the evening, if I do,  the wife usually asks me to turn it down so she can watch T.V. And she's downstairs. I can't imagine all the time, money and frustration I've saved by going the SET route and following the advice given in the Decware forums.

I think I read that Steve used the ZMA with panel speakers.  Can anyone confirm this?  (ZMA is rated 38 watts but goes much higher.)

I had to follow up on this and look into my “archives”.  Just so happens that the first Maggie’s I owned were MG-1’s.  I was cash strapped at the time and ran these with an NAD amp, can’t remember the power output but it wasn’t 100 watts for sure.  The second were 1.6’s.  At the time I was experimenting with a Chinese made amp.  Can’t remember the brand but I do recall that these were mono blocks using an 805 output tube at 50 watts ea.  Although that amp wasn’t the last word in fitness it drove those 1.6’s no problem at all.

My favorite speaker was the Quad Electrostatic.  Couldn’t afford those so I bought the Maggie’s.  There is a certain quality to planar speakers that I am drawn to but then there are certain qualities of dynamic speakers that I like and that planars of the day didn’t have.

I now own the UFO Select with Omega S3HOXRS and these have a blend of the two, planar/electrostatic and dynamic, that far surpass any of the above mentioned combos.  

I’m not saying that is the way you should go.  The MG-1’s are nice, and I’ll bet that any of the Tori amps could run these easily.  Talk to Steve.

Actually while I am on this 'Watt should I believe' frame of mind - can I direct you to Sanders white papers that 'seem' to clearly indicate why a powerful amplifier is necessary: http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors.

If you read that paper all the way through it clearly makes sense. Sanders also invites you to hook up a scope (which is easy to do) and find out for your self. Clipping is a common problem with amps that do not have the power reserves needed for the dynamics of music from a hi-fi system.

So 500 Watts - or 25 Watts - that is the question?

My first question would be how you enjoy your music. Are you high level blast it out or you more "audiophile" oriented. High level blast out I can see the megawatt need. I was like you when my Krell 550 wpc crapped out. All I ever owned was SS amplifiers. In the need for a replacement I started looking around and reading. I found the ZMA which unlike others had nice sized capacitors which I preferred for my type of listening. So 40 watts vs 550....what to do. I jumped in on the ZMA since there was a return policy.

So far this is my comparison. I use my source at variable output so no preamp. My volume goes from -70 to 0. 0 being full volume. With the SS as soon as I went above 20 the music started to have a distinct "amplified" sound. The ZMA however at similar levels is realistic. Even at higher levels which I do not prefer it is still real. I dont have a db meter but i am not at concert level but comfortable that sustained listening can be done without fatigue and loss of musicality and detail.

Thats my experience so if it helps you great if not no harm done keep up the search as only you know what you like and that is the way to be.

I agree with all the previous comments.  And here is my two cents into the discussion...

Tube clipping vs. SS clipping can be important in guitar/bass amplification, but should not be a part of the discussion when it comes to home audio, IMO.  To me, a decent home audio system should aim at replicating what was recorded in the studio or live environment as realistically as possible.  If the tone and timbre of the recorded instrument was a result of some sort of clipping or overdriving the amp used in the recording, I would like to hear that, but not any additional effect (including clipping) coming from the home audio system.  

In live amplification, it is common among tube-amp lovers to drive their amps to clipping for the tonal spectrum and in some cases to sit in the mix (for bass).  Actually, mixing engineers tend to add a tad of overdrive to bass for a more growling sound and having the bass sit in the mix more easily.  Because of this pleasant clipping aspect of tube amps, there is always the never-ending discussion on tube watts vs SS watts (well, a watt is a watt is a watt).

Now, coming back to the home audio system...  Even though I do not use tube amps in my bass amplification for some reasons, including but not limited to practicality, I made a switch to tubes back in 2003 after my apartment was broken into and my SS Classe Audio amp was stolen along with many other pieces of gear.  One of my friends introduced me to some designs by late Don Farber, and searching for affordable tube amps I came across Decware.  So I got my first SE84, doubled by another one later on for more volume, but there was always the clipping issue, particularly with piano and opera vocals that my wife and I loved to listen to.  The speakers that I was stubborn to use in this system were not cooperating/collaborating with the low-power SETs and we were not in love with potential single ended drives within our budget because of some shout effect as well as lack of bass in most of them.  So, we changed the system into a push/pull by Decware (TORII mkII) which we used happily for quite some years.  Now that system is gone and I have a totally different system as my main listening system.

However, having this affection for the SE84, I wanted to give it one more shot with the most recent model, still using the very first pair of speakers which were difficult to drive.  With the new output transformers, SE84UFO sounds like a 20w amp and I cannot tell how dynamic, detailed, realistic it is.  And did I mention I can turn it on only half way?

Now, there is no morale in this story.  There are more horrible tube designs, IMO, than good ones, and there are more horrible SS designs than good ones.  The point is to find the one you feel comfortable with.  The challenge is, though, this is not only about one of the components in your signal chain, but the totality of them; i.e., the synergy among all the components.  So rather than relying mostly on published specs (most of which are flawed or insufficient to explain the sonority of a system anyway), it includes a lot of trial and error.  

By reading a list of material on the basics, you can save quite some time and funds, but at the end of the day, you would like to see/hear for yourself.  To me, as long as the gear is out of the way of music, it is a fine piece of gear...

Lon, I have not met you in person, but from what you write I can always rely on your "wise" comments!  I do not know if it came with age, but it is definitely there!  :)

Best,

Alper

"In both the solid state and tube systems I've heard and had I think that simplicity is the key."

Nelson Pass would agree. I recently had the opportunity to listen to the First Watt J2 amp (a Stereophile amp-of-the-year). Very nice, and Pass says it has the lowest part count of all of his amps.

filliment,

i currently run mg1.6's with a 120watt cary cad 120s (tube amp), using csp3 as a pre. its magical!

i am positive a zma (class a) would drive these as well with no problem.  that is the next amp i am saving up for!