Who's using power regenerators and what changes has it made to your sound?

Rick

A 5% improvement wouldn't be worth it to me. I don't think I would even notice a difference. I think when we get to the point of minimal returns, it almost doesn't make sense especially for that kind of money.

Rick

I would love to see everyone do the following and report back with an approximate percent of perceived change:

1) find the breaker for your audio room down at your breaker panel.  Replace the breaker with a fresh new one and make sure the contacts are clean.

2) Replace the receptacle for your stereo equipment with a hospital grade duplex receptacle.

3) Clean the power cord prongs for your audio gear with sandpaper, or a wire brush.  Clean the female end of the cord with a spray contact cleaner.

4) Clean the IEC connector's metal prongs that receive the power cord.

5) Clean the RCA jacks inside and outside with contact cleaner.

6) Clean the RCA cables

7) Clean the speaker binding posts on both amp and speakers  and finally the speaker cable ends.

8) If you have tube gear, clean all the individual tube pins with a pencil eraser and then spray them with a contact cleaner and re-install them into your components.

Hook everything back up and turn it on with the volume all the way down, and let it settle for an hour.

Return and listen to your system.

Good call Steve. I just picked up another can of Caig Deoxit and went through my system since it's been in the same place for almost 3 years now.

I've seen magic made cleaning contacts on vintage guitar amps I was cleaning up and "restoring".  With our audio gear, the sound fades so gradually over time, we don't realize how it's losing that sparkle till it's brought back.

And all that for the cost of a $20 can of contact cleaner and a little scrubbing/swapping.

Interesting - I've never heard of that one, but have used Caig extensively on 50-60 year old amps with great success. I wouldn't say it's garbage, but I'd be interested if there was something better.

Well, believe it or not, my house still has fuses so easy enough to change that out. All my gear is new so no cleaning needed there. The outlet I plug things into is new although not a hospital grade. I recently removed the Tripplite isolation transformer because it was making a aloud humming noise but after letting it sit for a week unused, it seems to be quiet now so I will put that back into the circuit. I have 5 different sets of RCA's (3 on trial) that range from $35-$800 a pair and my ears can't tell any difference. That's why I was wondering what may be hindering the improvement via different grade RCA's.

Rick

If you can't hear that range of cables with such nice gear, I too would be quite concerned. But also, as you heard with your Morrow cables, if they are not burned in, you still don’t hear them fully!

Connections

Even with newish cables and gear, contact enhancers would likely help some. I have been making a lot of cables over the last several years, and use enhancers on new cable ends. Also on new wire ends for power cables with screw down connections.

Aside from that, I clean and enhance my system contacts pretty regularly and I am always impressed at what I hear when they are cleaned up and enhanced.

I have not replaced the breaker though. Will try that.

I like pink deoxit fine for serious cleaning, and for years I have used Deoxit Gold as an enhancer. The theory of increasing surface contact with micro particles filling micro imperfections makes sense to me. And I can hear it.

But what I heard first was bad from the Gold. I had similar results from Silclear silver paste...veiled. Then I think it was Dave Elledge from Pi Audio who said he polished off the Gold pretty quickly after putting it on. This worked for me, now an improvement without doubt. Lately, I got a bottle of Cardas contact cleaner, and it is a good enhancer, decent cleaner, and cheap. Out of habit, I don't let it set on the connection long before wiping/polishing.

I have a Furutech Copper receptacle. It was noticeably better sounding than a Hospital grade, though the Hospital was notably better than the standard recepticle. Hospital Grade allowed greater sense of complete signal, and the Furutech did more, allowing finer detail, complexity and musicality...very nice.

Regenerator

I have commented on my PSAudio P5 too much on this forum already, as have others, so a search might take you further.....

Basically, for me, the P5 was initially too veiled and colored compared to my modded Brickwall and Uberbuss, but I needed steady voltage, so persisted. One volt is a real choice with the Torii and CSP3 to my ears. They are darker fuller with higher voltage and more open/clear with lower, and my house power would move around 2-3 volts over days, messing with my sound balance.

But even with decent feet, the PSAudio AC12 cable, and the just-right (for me) settings (119v out, -4 phase, low distortion, sine wave), it was still a bit too veiled. So I worked more on feet to pull more open transparency and built a power cord that would likely be too bright/revealing in many settings, but resolved the P5 nicely. It is carefully configured small gauges of silver-plated copper/teflon adding up to 9 gauge, and rhodium ends.

Now quite good for most of the system, I still had to use my modded Brickwall with a Shunyata Defender conditioner for the front end to get the transparency and fine detail my DAC provides. The combination sounds better than what I had, and I have the blessed voltage stability I needed, but I have no idea how to say the percentage.

Questions of Problems and Value

Starting with really good gear, for me, the last 5-10 percent is worth way more than the first 90-95. And the last refinements generally add up in costs, but relative to what?

In my experience, the assumption that the primary components are where we need to spend the research and money, with the idea that the rest is secondary, makes no sense. If the room is not up to the source, amp and speakers...or if the power is not up to these...or if vibrations limit the potential of any of it...or connections/cables hobble the whole... haven’t we in effect wasted money on good source, amp and speakers?

Alternately, as long as our front end can provide it, and we don't mask/kill it on the way to the speakers, the potential of this level of gear seems pretty vast.

And no matter how we get it, greater quiet (less distortions) allows finer detail, speed, and space, things that effect every aspect of the frequency spectrum….an empty background provides room for subtler musical information...dynamics, detail, harmonics and ambient information. If these can make it sound like music rather than recordings, what is that worth?

Looked at another way, if improving noise management, cables, tubes, etc can make, say a 5-15 percent overall sound improvement...AND...it can cause a shift in the listening experience from really good, to downright engaging, what is that worth? What is the percentage of improvement when things shift toward feeling real?

The trick is sorting out where the worst hobbles are! Once they are resolved everything becomes pretty clear. No more wondering if or how much a tube, foot, cable, fuse changes things... but rather choices of which qualities give better overall sound and synergy.

Toward this end, for me, clean and stable power, excellent cables and feet, and room treatments are required in order to hear the most, and to keep from hobbling our musical experience.

Whether a regenerator will do that for you, who knows for sure, but most people that have them do not regret having paid a fair bit for them, even me who felt like I had to work too hard to get something that valuable to work well. But after all the messing around, my power is truly great, and interestingly, my house power has gotten worse with greater voltage swings and greater THD swings...Also, if I move, I am likely/maybe done, regardless of conditions. And finally, I like the settings on the P5 a lot, giving me a better baseline tuning potential. How it is set up effects everything else. So I am glad to have the P5.

That said, though you can find used regenerators, and seriously marked down ones like mine was, even then they are expensive. At least in this house, with relatively clean power, had I not needed voltage control, I guess I could have been good with nice "conditioners."

I wonder if you have a local store who would let you try power treatment without shipping. Music direct does, but unless it is a demo, you have the question of burnin, and also shipping. My P5 took forever to show its self (before I got it tuned up)! Just wondering about trying some things without full commitment to see if the cables you are trying become more revealing with better power.

I have been down a similar power treatment past.  Cryo'd industrial grade outlets, dedicated line to the listening room, power cords, isolation transformers, etc.  I do clean my contacts although not religiously.  In general, I got improvements with each power improvement tactic.

But when Lonely Raven plugged his P10 into my system and I heard the difference, it was one of those automatic buying decisions.  I began searching after he left.  I ended up with a power plant premier due to budget, but I got a good lift out of it and have never looked back.

Lon was upgrading, so I bought his P5 and it completely changed my sound again.  Biggest difference was how completely black the backgrounds were.  I did think the sound was a bit too sterile and consulted Will who I knew had played around with the settings.  Using his settings from his post above, I think I am getting closer to what I want, but I am still fiddling with it.

Some additional info.  

My house, even with a dedicated line to my room, has really crappy power.  I perceive big differences with both my Rachael and Torii.

I can confirm that Lonely Raven did not get as big an increase with his P10/ZMA combination.  We did some A/B.  

I also have a P300 which is an earlier model of the power plant which I took to my cottage in the boonies of Michigan with few houses on that power line and it did not make a big difference (although it did in my house, same as the PPP).  

I also took the P300 to Proggrob's house and in our short test, did not perceive a difference in his system.  Admittedly, we did not do much of an A/B.

So here are my conclusions from my experience thus far:

1. I think the size of the lift is dependent upon your amp and/or your power quality.
2. I believe that the P5 and p10 (maybe the P3?) are tunable to change your system sound.
3. I will always have power treatment as a foundation of any system build, but I would start with outlets and power cords first.

I haven't done an A/B comparison of the two.  I only had the Rachael when Raven lugged his P10 over to my house and there was a night and day difference.  

I do sense a similar P5 signature on both amps so it is having an effect.

What was confusing for me later was when I took my power plant over to Rob's house.  I figured another "non-regulated" amp like his zen select would also present a night and day difference.  It did not.  

This is what lead to my "amp and/or power" comment above.

Everything is ip for grabs again now because I finally ponied up and bought a 2012 i7 quad core Mac mini.  You wouldn't think it would change the sound signature of the system but it has.  It sounds far better and I haven't even installed the linear power supply.

Well I would have to say my sound is much better today than it was when I started getting into this hobby almost a year ago. I guess with trial and error you find what works and improves the sound. Apparently there's still room for improvement since I can't hear any difference between low grade and higher grade cables. If the power source is the bottleneck to resolving this, that would be another leap in my sound quality. It's almost like we are trying to chase down the chicken or the egg to achieve the best possible sound. It's good that a lot of the manufacturers allow a trial period so we can determine what the weak link is....

Rick

Thanks Will,
Yeah I have changed some of the tubes in the Torii Jr. The regulator is now a Philips and the pre-amp sections are also different, although I don't recall what they are and am on vacation so I can't verify what they have been changed to but I've tried 2 different sets.  I haven't tried changing the 4 output tubes yet as I thought they would be less likely to reveal a change than the others I've swapped out.  I did purchase some Graphene Extreme power cords and ended up selling them because I didn't notice a change but that was before I got the new TT and Streamer sources which made a huge improvement. Currently I'm using $35 Linn power cords that the local store recommended which look like plain old cheap power cords. My next step is to add a pre-amp which I'm looking at the Micro ZOTL from Linear Tube Audio. They just came out with one that has a remote control so that's a plus for me.  I may even get their 10watt power amp and compare it side by side with the Torii Jr. just for kicks. If there's no improvement in any of this, I'm guessing that the power may be something to seriously consider. Currently the sound is really good but it seems as though there's an undesirable frequency somewhere in the mids with the vocals which I'm suspecting could be room dynamics. Not a whole lot I can do with the room because it's not a dedicated listening room but we are going to change the huge entertainment center to something more streamline and mount the TV on the wall. I was thinking of adding some decorative wood on the wall that the TV goes on which may help with the sound reflections. Seems as though this hobbies keeping me busy, but I guess that's part of the fun especially when there's a golden pot at the end of the rainbow.  8-)

Rick

llance, I see where you're coming from, me, having owned the MicroZOTL Preamp, and a Audio Research LS17 SE and CSP3.

However, you need to drive through some x-over's with the JanZen's. If I never modified my Acoustic Zen Adagio's and did not know Decware.....I could see an all Linear Tube Audio gig happening here for me. But, I do know Decware and with the single Mundorf MCap Supreme in each Adagio modification and the ZMA driving them....the tone/timbre is nothing solid state, even output transformer-less can touch. Plus, add in NOS Plat tube rolling and I can't leave the Room.

However, I understand your love for the JanZen's....and what YOU need to drive them with......LTA.

I'm also coming from the aspect, you need more drive through the x-over's of the Janzen's...with the LTA Pre. I've found now, the purity of the ZMA sans Pre, is outstanding, with my mod Adagio's. I'm also fortunate to own the Kimber Select KS6063, that provide an additional level of clarity, dynamic's with musicality/ZMA....I could not obtain with Kimber 8TC or even Select KS3033 (yes folk's; cabling matter's and NOS tubes). First and foremost....treat your room though.