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Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question (Read 10452 times)
Blueone302
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Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
08/11/16 at 22:38:17
 
Good Afternoon,

 Just a bit of background.  I bought my Mk Iv back in April; had a problem with "valve drift" (whatever that is)  Steve fixed it.  It came with a standard set of Tubes from Decware with a pair of Tungsol KT 66's.  The owner also kicked in a quad of Cryo'd EL 34's from The Tube Doctor.  (Out of Germany?) On my own and at the suggestion of a friend, i picked up a new quad of Genalex Gold Lion KT 66's.  Steve also sent the AMP back with the Tungsol EL34's.  I also had a quad of EH 6L6GC's given to me by a friend that sold his amp.  These were new, never opened.  

Ive never thought I was getting the bass output the amp was capable of.  So over the last few days I hooked up two different solid state amps.  Both cheap yard sale models I bought for my kids.  One is a JVC HT amp with 110 watts per channel stereo.  The other is a 100 wpc RCA.  The crazy thing to me is that I get a ton of bass output with these amps into both pair of speakers.  There is a bit of bloat, but they're cheap amps.  If it matters, I've got about 200 hours on the Torii MK IV since I got it back from Steve.  


So today I hooked the Torii MK IV back up.  And on a whim, I stuck the quad of the EH 6L6GC's in the MK IV.  While I didn't get the bass I'm getting from the solid state amps, it was a marked improvement.  But, in the process I lost some some of the clarity and also the sound stage shrunk noticably.

I did notice a difference in both the Spatial's and the Cornwall's after a couple of hundred hours.  My problem is how when compared to the MK IV, I'm getting an amazing amount of bass out of these two cheapo solid state amps with these same speakers.  So why not the Torii?

So...  
1) Am I asking too much of the Torii?  
2) Is the mega bass the result of the cheap power from the SS amps?  Or,
3) could there be something wrong with the MK IV?  Or,
4) Is this a tube thing?  Might there be another set of output tubes that might wake it up?

I'm running an Oppo BDP 105D into a Don Sachs SP 14 Pre with a quad of Shuguang ECC81 tubes into the MK IV and out to a pair of Klipsch Cornwall III's and more recently into a pair of Spatial M3 Turbo S's.  

The MK IV is running the original OA3 and 2's,  a pair pf Phillips 5R46Ys Rectifiers, nd a pair of 7DJ8 NOS Phillips for signal tubes.

Note:  From the beginning, I have felt that I've lacked bass first with the Cornwalls and now with the Spatial's.  BUt...  With time and the Genalex KT 66's the amp and Cornwalls definitely got better after several months, but never with the punch of the SS amps.  (Kind of makes me sad.)


Sorry if this is TMI.  Still your thoughts appreciated on the bass question.

Jim
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will
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #1 - 08/11/16 at 23:54:15
 
Jim,

I have the opposite problem. I get too much bass from my Torii MKIII and IV in my rooms without some EQ. Interestingly, when I reduce the offending frequencies, my bass gets "stronger." By reducing mushy low modes, the power of mid bass is revealed, sounding and feeling like more bass, and associated, more open above. The bloat you hear with the solid state amps could possibly point a little in this direction??? Have you played with the bass and impedance switches lately, or the reconstructive feedback...until the Torii has 400 or so hours, the reconstructive feedback can be diffuse sounding. Also, you will get more or less obvious power with the impedance switches, but go more for the right sound when checking and adjust with volume. The bass switches are likewise, and you may need different settings with the different speakers and as everything burns in.

Of the tubes you have, I would think all should put out good bass with your MKIV. The bass definitely takes the longest to clarify and resolve with burnin of the amp and power tubes though. So your experience with the Genalex getting better with time makes some sense. The KT66s likely have tighter bass than the EL34s, the Tungsols more open/less rich and full than the Genalex, but since you have a  fair bit of time on the Genalex, I might try playing with the switches with the Genalex. I find that power tubes can need up to 200 hours (and sometimes more) to come out, bass definition being last. I have not heard the EHs but I use 6L6Gs and variants of them most in my amp. I find them a bit more open and articulate than the Gold Lion KT66 I used for a long time.

The Phillips 7DJ8s would be a little less powerful than good 6922/E88CCs, including a little less bass, but if your bass is just not yet resolved from burnin of the amp and tubes, the 7DJ8 may be your friend. I use them a lot, a nice blend between 6922 power and 6DJ8 open textures and spaciousness, and the combinations somehow being extra good at micro detail and space...important for sound stage I think.

That said, speakers definitely can matter. I am glad you have two very different ones to work with. And speaker placement...I guess you have played with this. Out from walls 4-5 feet? Little toe angle changes effect my room/soundstage.

Also, the Torii is so simple that everything effects everything. You can pull more sense of power and bass with better power, better power cords (generally bigger gauges = more bass potential and copper = warmer/darker and silver on copper more open articulate), ICs make differences too, also reducing vibration....with tubes and such a simple signal path, it all matters.

Good luck. I bet you will get there.
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Lon
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #2 - 08/12/16 at 00:37:25
 
Jim, I have never had satisfactory bass in my system with the rectifiers you are using. A pair of 5U4 type may give you more. . . .
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Blueone302
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #3 - 08/12/16 at 01:25:22
 
Lon,

  Any recommendations you might care to make?
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Blueone302
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #4 - 08/12/16 at 01:29:32
 
Will,

  I have played with the 4 and 8 Ohm taps.  4 is better.  I've also played with the treble and the bass switches.  Treble is up 1/3.  Bass is off.  And reconstructive feedback is on.  The latter helped me cut out some of the high treble overload when I switched in the EH tubes today.

  Ive played with placement more with the Klipsch than the Spatial's.  But the Spatials are out 5 ft from the back wall and 32 in from the side walls.  Near field listening position of 10 ft..
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Lon
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #5 - 08/12/16 at 01:29:40
 
I'm a habitual user of RCA rectifiers, the oldest I can find, and bottle shape when possible. I've used 50's RCA 5U4G and currently in my Mk III I am using late '40s RCA 5V4G. Get a matched pair of these types, they are frequently ebayed at reasonable prices.
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Blueone302
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #6 - 08/12/16 at 07:09:59
 
Thanks Lon
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Jeff1
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #7 - 08/12/16 at 22:24:26
 
I will agree with the boomy mushy bass from inexpensive SS amps can make it seem they have more bass but I would be once your Tori is set right you will hear more accurate bass. Based on the rest of what you wrote  would suggest considering a few points.

1) Replace and/or make sure all of your tubes are of the original specs that Steve ships with that amp. Purchase new tubes from Decware to so you know you have quality tubes. This will give you a solid starting point to evaluate your situation.

2)As mentioned by Will try upgrading your power cord. Decware offers a very nicely priced cord and you can't beat 30 days return if you don't like it.

3) Have you tried running your Oppo directly to your Tori? It looks like your pre is a nice one but do you need the additional component in your system?

4)Obtain a high quality sub. It will allow you to find the speaker and seating position without dropping bass therefore concentrating on imaging and such. Just don't put it in the corner.

side note: how do you like the darbee processing on your Oppo? It does enhance those movies that were filmed with great care and quality.
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Blueone302
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #8 - 08/17/16 at 06:11:20
 
With the exception of the EH tubes, I've got the original tubes back in the amp. sounds the same.  But did get an increase with the EH tubes and the original rectifiers.  (Switched everything back in a piece at a time.)

Tried the Tungsol and Tube Dr. EL 34's.  No joy.

I have upgraded the power cord.

The bass got better with the pre, but not significantly.

Note:  The Torii is new to me, but is almost two years old.  Might say I bought it seasoned; and Steve checked it out for me before all of this.

I like the Oppo a lot.  Would like it better if I sat down and watched more movies.  Note to self.
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Matchstikman
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #9 - 08/17/16 at 14:44:44
 
Blueone, for what it is worth I own an original blue Torii which by no means compares to your version of the Torii.  It has a nice sound, mid to hi, but it always lacked in the bass department.  Steve says the speaker selection is very critical to get the low end.  I always used a subwoofer but I always had problems getting that software to completely blend into the rest of the spectrum.

Anyway, today I use an original CSP into a Van Alstine SS which go to Decware MG944s.  The subwoofer was removed.  The bottom end is glorious.  The CSP does a marvelous job of adding what was lost when I removed the Torii.  I'd like to put the Torii back into place to revisit the sound but for now the CSP adds enough to make the sound soothing.  In fact, I listen for hours and I often have to turn off the system only because I need to get to bed; otherwise, it would be on all night.  No fatigue.

The CSP really is that good and I don't even have the latest version with all that it now provides.

So, it might be your speakers or you might need a sub.  I have two Decware amps that sound amazing but they both need a subwoofer to get them to sound complete.

Just my 2 cents.
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will
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #10 - 08/17/16 at 19:06:48
 
Blue,

It is good to know the Torii is seasoned. That you have 200 hours since Decware worked on it...well, it might depend what they did...different parts having more effect on burnin. But whatever the differences between the Torii and what you are used to...comparing the SS amps and what you want, the whole combination of room, amp, speakers need help if possible.

Wink

Have you called Steve? He has walked a lot of folks through troubleshooting Decware!

The reason I suggested playing with speaker placement, and using different speakers, is that especially Klipsch seem to be pretty amp dependent to sound good...(the guy who does all the crossover upgrades...is it Crites... apparently does not like tubes). This might support Match's comments on SS and/or a sub, but also, could make working with the Spatials more relevant, to see if you can pull more bass from them once they are loosened up.

Relative to this, there is no question that low room modes here make the bass muddled and seemingly lacking, but in fact, it is too much in the 45 and 69 Hz areas and below 20 Hz (where my speakers are not supposed to go). This is why I suggested trying the switches again disregarding volume in evaluation. Seems you have everything set for strongest bass, but I thought it could be possible your room and speakers are "reacting" to the Torii bass like mine did. I have the switches on 4 ohm, bass off, (most bass) and reconstructive on also. But with EQ, I have carefully placed, but serious low bass cuts, and my bass is tight and low material hits you in the body. This is also with reduced bass power at the amp using OB3s (to reduce power tube intensity, density, including bass) and generally using ECC88/6DJ8s and PCC88/7DJ8s (not always, but generally less bass than E88CC/6922). And finally, Phillips made GZ32 a lower power GZ34/5AR4 type. Both of these tube types tend to be more punchy/articulate/dynamic, with tighter bass than 5U4G types, the GZ34/5AR4 being more powerful, going lower stronger in general.

I was helping someone with Klipsch speakers and a MKIV for a while and GZ34s helped the bass compared to 5U4G straight bottle types. In my experience (generally again), NOS, straight 5U4Gs have been the Torii rectifiers with deepest, though not tightest bass. In this case, with a 5AR4/GZ34, less became more because of how the tube presented bass, not because it went lower.

That the stock 5U4G helped is good information. Are those the brown bass, Chinese, narrow coke bottle shape? This would be the type of one tube Lon recommended, an earlier RCA 5U4G-ST (the ST being the coke bottle shape). The other he recommended is an American variant of a GZ32, a 5V4G. In my experience (again generally) the 5V4G don't go quite as low as the NOS RCA 5U4Gs, but can be tighter and also more spacious in their own way ....maybe sort of between your 5R4GYs and early 50s RCA 5U4G-ST, but again, it is variable.

All the rectifier types have different sounds across the spectrum, and then vary within the types, so it gets tricky. But if your sound could use some tightening and clarifying, GZ32/5V4G (5V4Gs tend to be pretty inexpensive but are relatively variable in tone) or GZ34/5AR4 might be good options. If you know it is lack of bass, the GZ34 has stronger bass. These could increase bass punch and offer slightly more articulate upper end clarity, the RCA 5U4G-ST being less punchy, and having more focus on micro information. The 50s RCA 5U4G-ST with top round getters are the clearer of that tube in my experience with a very neutral tonal balance and amazing potential for micro detail if it is not masked.

Also, I guess your original inputs are NOS Russian 6N23P? Or are they Electro Harmonics 6922s? This matters as the NOS Russian tubes are really good at what they do, but tend to be a little lighter on bass compared to good quality 6922s.

Some really good E88CCs will generally increase bottom over 7DJ8 and 6N23P. There is a really good sale on some NOS Mullard E88CC at partsconnexion now...a legendary gold pin 6922 type. If you are close, these are good powerful tubes, extended, the full spectrum clear, but also warmish. I use E88CCs, but if I have problems with them, they are "too good"...too powerful, in the face. I prefer the Torii toned down a little in my room/system though. As you are finding, it is all how things work together/balance in a particular setting though, so who knows if this tube would suit.

But as I said above, in most cases, the tubes you have should produce notable bass, that is if the speakers and room "communicate" well with the Torii. Then there is the taste thing...and the amp may have something wrong though it seems unlikely having gone through the paces at Decware ....Too many variables, but if you feel like it is the amp, calling Steve and troubleshooting is the best.

Just for a test, have you tried the Spatials more out in the room? Or  more in toward the back wall and out from the sides, trying to carefully "build bass"? OBs seem to need a lot of space, and who knows exactly what your room is doing. I am thinking that if you tried them out more, it could be useful to rule out masking from bass modes/muddle. Then move the bass cut switch to the back (on) and crank the volume some to compensate. If things tighten up in the bottom, this is telling. Then if you moved them out a little more and if bass tightens/opens more, also telling. This could be a way to verify how much room is associated with how the speakers are interacting with the Torii.

Hope this helps.

Will

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Blueone302
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #11 - 08/30/16 at 04:49:32
 
Problem Solved.

Sorry for not posting for a while.  I appreciate all the help. I did play with placement more on both the Spatials and the Cornwalls.  It helped a bit, but both are/were still anemic.  I think it was Matchstickman who mentioned Steve saying the amp needs to be paired with the right speakers.  (My paraphrase)

Well, he was right.  I'm now the proud, thankful and amazed owner of a pair of HR's.  I'll write more about the whole odyssey in a month or so.  However, for right now with only 20-30 hours on them, I'll just say the Torii MK IV, the Pre and the HR's are killer. I want to get some real hours on them before I say too much more.

All along the way, I've made and heard incremental improvements.  But nothing like the Torii and HR's together.

I also need to say that I'm fortunate to have a wife that let me turn our living room into what she called "the showroom" for the last month with three and four different amps and four pair of speakers.

I guess I'm a skeptic at heart.  However in this case, I have drank the Kool-Aid; and it is good.

Again, thanks to all for your willingness to share knowledge.  The information and experiences you've shared will still serve to help me tweak and improve my system in the future.

And Lon, your tip on the Rectifiers was on point too.

Special thanks to Ziggy.  How lucky to live in NC and have him for a  two county over neighbor.  I'll be back!

J
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Lon
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #12 - 08/30/16 at 11:45:21
 
Great news! I'm so happy you have these great speakers and keep on enjoying!
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Matchstikman
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #13 - 08/30/16 at 15:21:03
 
People have said the HRs are amazing.  I have MG944s and I've been told the HRs are like the MG944s but on steroid.  They must sound wonderful.
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Blueone302
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Re: Torii Mk IV  Tube Bass Sound Question
Reply #14 - 08/30/16 at 22:58:51
 
They do sound good.  (Together)  For comparison I've also ran the HR's through a class d amp.  That's pretty phenomenal too.  And from what I understand they will only get better.  Just came in and turned it on.  Sitting here listening to a cheap Marvin Gaye Greatest Hits CD.  I would rarely listen to it before.  It was that bad.  But now, "I Heard it Through the Grape Vine" and "What's Going On" are slinky smooth.  The bass line is about to make me want to dance.  Better hide your eyes.   Again, thanks for the patience and encouragement.
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