I currently have a MT, while it is an amazing music, I feel like I am being limited by its substantial gain over a standard amp. My only source is my Thorens TD-150 into an Audio Research PH3 with an Ortofon 2M Bronze cart.

My listening room is small, 11x12, so I basically can barely turn my volume past 5-10% before it gets too loud. (Running these into SuperPensils w/ Mark Audio A12P drivers).

I am doing some room treatments and getting new furniture for the room. I was also planning on an upgrade to the Zen Phono Stage and new speakers. I was leaning towards the HR-1s but dont want to do that if it makes more sense to change my amp around.

When I started thinking about it, I immediately started looking at the SE34I.5... then it dawned on me that I should look at the Torii Jr. or Torii Mk 4. That would open up a world of possibilities.

I of course could drop a pre-amp in front of my MT but I really like the approach of less is more.

Basically it comes down to:

1. Do I replace my PH3 with the ZP3?
2. Do I change from my MT to a SE34I.5 or Torii Jr/Torii? If so what one?
3. What speakers for a 11x12 room where I would like to keep the footprint on the smaller side.

So far I looked at OmegaSpeakers, Tannoy, Decware (obviously), Zu Audio (removed from list), and DeVore Gibbon 88.

Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.

Hard to answer your question without knowing more.  Not being able to turn a volume control as far as you'd like seems like an odd reason to want to by a new amp.  Are you looking for a different sound?  Is there something about the Mini Torii that you are looking on to improve?

I've got a Mini Torii and just sold some Alpair 10P Pensils.  I've also got a Zen SE84 UFO that drove those speakers just fine as well.  While the Pensils are fine speakers, I found that I preferred the sound of the Omegas...both the Alnico and 3XRS models.

I've also played with my Zstage in front of the Mini Torii.  Lowering the gain so I had more volume play with the Mini Torii really didn't change the overall character of that amp.

Perhaps what you are missing could simply be satisfied by a change in speakers or maybe it is the amplifier?  Sorry for the non answer, I guess we need to know exactly what areas of improvement you are looking for.

Ron - we have a ZMC1>ZP3>Rachael into Omega 7XRS mk2 and have plenty of gain on the phono end of things. It does seem nice to have a wider window of adjustment on the volume control on the Rachael. I would only add a CSP3 to our system to add weight to the cd player. Decware & Omega is one happy combo. Happy listening, Chris.

Ron, that's odd that your Mini Torii is distorting at 9:00 on the volume dial.  I can turn mine much louder than that, and can listen to it at 12:00 with no sense of distortion at all....just uncomfortably loud.  Can you reduce the amount of voltage coming into from the AR PH3?

If you had another source available, I'd try that and see if you are getting the same issues.  Perhaps you have a dvd player that you could hook up to see if things change?

Ok so I turned my feedback knob all the way clockwise to tame the highs. That helped quite a bit. I feel the main issue is my speakers and room.

HR-1 are a little bit too pricey for my taste, but the DM947 or ERRx's are more in the sweet spot. Especially if I will be getting the ZP3 as well.

After I turned the feedback knob clockwise I was able to move the volume knob past 9 oclock up to 12 oclock.

That tells me the shout in the mid range is really where the speakers start to break up big time.

I will be doing a real room response shortly.

I love the MT and will stick with it if there is an efficient speaker that can be tamed.

Side note, I was looking at the Ohm Walsh Tall 1000, but I don't feel comfortable trying that speaker with the 4W MT. Has anyone heard these in person? Similar concept to the ERRx and at least there are many reports of the ERRx sounding amazing.

Thanks again for all the input this is fantastic!

Has anyone here had good luck with the ERRx + Mini Torii. I think the combination of the ERRx and the ZP3 with my MT might make for a killer system.

It is minimalistic, the ERRx look like they will help some with the room acoustics and the system also stays very small/tight.

Thanks
Ron

Thank you for the replies. I spent a few hours today with my brother doing a full frequency response of the room and my current speakers. The amp isn't the problem, the speakers and the room are the culprit (obviously). I just didnt realize how bad it was in the new room/new house.

I turned off the treble control circuit so we were measuring the pure signal of the Mark Audio drivers in their cabinets.

Below is the averaged (18 measurement) frequency response.



As you can see, there is a 51 Hz huge bump. Drivers don't go much lower then 50 Hz.

Then there is a huge drop off, but lets say we cannot trust anything below 200 Hz...

From 200 Hz to 1 kHz there is essentially no midrange. This explains my problem about having way too much shout. I am turning the amp too loud to begin to hear the mids, but the drivers are producing highs that are very uncomfortable to listen to.

... So that leaves me with a speaker selection choice. Considering the room challenges I feel like the ERRx or HR-1 might make sense.

Hard for me to buy a speaker un-heard, especially the HR-1s. I know they will be amazing, but that is a lot to drop without hearing them. Wish I was closer to IL for Decfest.

The reason I am still looking at the Torii Jr is to open up some more options when it comes to speaker selections (like the Ohm Walsh 1000s)...

Hopefully this was as interesting to everyone as it was to me!

Ciao,
Ron Valente

Ron, I responded to your PM but I'll also include the basic response here:

To be honest Ron, I think that both the ERRs that I have (which is the model before the ERRx) and the two HR-1 pairs that I have (one is one of the final prototypes, one is a current production model) are better for LARGER rooms. I had the predecessors to the ERRs (the RL-1 and RL-2) in a room just about your size and I struggled to relax into the music. They need to be far out from the wall to really image right IMO and then you are very close to them and the frequency balance is not quite right and you just don't forget they are there and relax into the sound. As soon as I took the RL-2s out into a larger room everything was better and I loved to listen to my music much more. That is when I ordered a pair of ERRs. Bob offered me a huge discount on two pairs if I were to take a pair of HR-1 prototypes he had ready to ship first. . . I had those a year before he built my ERRs! I love both of the speaker types but when a ship of mine came in I ordered a pair of production HR-1s which are subtly different (not necessarily better) and use them in my only system now. I think the HR-1s might work just a tad better in the small room, and the front firing driver will flesh out your frequency balance in the near field listening. But to be honest there is probably a better solution in a smaller speaker for that room. Perhaps the Open Baffles that Randy sells. Or the Decware monitors on some nice stands perhaps. I probably should have moved in that direction myself those years I was in a small room.

I would prefer a nice pair of tower speakers, but if the size of the room. Maybe directionals are my only option? I could also look at a pair of monitors but speakers on stands are much less appealing to me.

Yeah, that would be great. Even if I change amps, I am less inclined to go get something like a Focal or B+W...

The Ohms Walsh seems to have mixed reviews with their latest design.

Legacy Audio looked impressive as well as Harbeth, but all of those are going to need the Torii Jr ++.

Going to give Steve a call and get his input as well.

Thanks again

Good news: I through in 96 sq ft of 8lb carpet pad, what a difference!
Going to get myself the ZP3 and Torii Jr.

Now its time to decide on new speakers...

Run all your sources through a Z Stage so you can control the input voltage to the MT. No need to change amps. HR-1s will do just fine.

A ZBOX would probably be better; tube buffer/unity gain.

The first thing I would examine is if the Mini Torii has the designed 12AU7 in it.  If it had a 12AT7 or 12AX7 you would have issues even with CD.

And that is the reference we need to establish.  With a CD player or normal DAC, the output is 2 volts.  A mini torii can be turned up to 12 o'clock without clipping on almost all music.  If your source is only a volt or less, the volume will have to be turned up higher to compensate.

I would hook up a CD player to it, and see where your volume control lands in comparison to your phono stage to get a starting point to work from.

Steve