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Why would a DAC have a volume control? (Read 15565 times)
Matchstikman
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Why would a DAC have a volume control?
07/25/16 at 02:28:45
 
I've been checking out a few DACs and I've seen more than a few have a volume control and I can't understand why?  My current DAC has nothing like that.  Help me understand the reason for it.
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Rich
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #1 - 07/25/16 at 03:21:45
 
Some dacs also serve as headphone amps or basic preamps
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Bottlehead
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #2 - 07/25/16 at 03:48:42
 
So that you can run it directly into your amp w/no need for preamp.
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Matchstikman
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #3 - 07/25/16 at 04:01:39
 
I don't see how a psuedo-preamp inside the DAC could ever be superior to standard preamp or a Decware preamp.  How would DAC w/volume control work with a Decware preamp?  I'm thinking that I'd max the volume on the DAC and control the output with the Decware unit.  Does this make sense?

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Bottlehead
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #4 - 07/25/16 at 04:08:57
 
The dacs that I have probably shouldn't be considered to have a preamp built in, so much as just a volume control (digital), so no, it wouldn't compare to a Decware pre, but if your amp has a volume control (or if you are using a preamp), you can vary the body/sound by doing what Steve calls "riding the gain". Consult the owner's manual for the ZStage for more info. Happy listening.
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Lon
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #5 - 07/25/16 at 12:10:24
 
Look up Steve's articles about "riding the gain." With the amps' input controls, preamps in DACs and other preamps you have three volume controls to play with and experience the sound changes.

That said my DAC has a preamp and it works marvelously (it should the darned thing was so expensive); I actually use this into the amp directly and prefer that sound to the Decware preamp added in the chain. So I have my amp all the way up and control volume on the DAC for most of my listening, and love the sound. And the DAC has a remote for volume, source switching, phase reversal, and balance (and the remote also controls my P10 power regenerator).
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Matchstikman
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #6 - 07/25/16 at 14:40:32
 
Lon, I've been reading about the differences between analog and digital volume control.  

Check this out:
http://www.esstech.com/files/3014/4095/4308/digital-vs-analog-volume-control.pdf...
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Lon
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #7 - 07/25/16 at 14:44:00
 
Although that page won't come up for me, I'm familiar with those differences. In the implementation of the DirectStream there is no degradation of signal if you keep the volume above 50 percent; it's a 32 bit control. I use the volume from 70 to 100. Amazing clarity! Anything else I have put in between has been adding a veil. In a few months I should have a ZBit and we'll see how that does allowing me to use my balanced outputs on the DirectStream into the Torii.

This sums up my experience and reading:

Bottom line

From a theoretical standpoint, a well-implemented analog volume control on the output of a DAC will provide superior performance. However, when a DAC chip has sufficiently low self-noise, the digital volume control will lag only slightly behind. When considering the performance of the system as a whole under normal listening conditions, any differences may not actually be audible. And for those who wish the highest-fidelity signal path -- i.e., the one that least alters the signal between source and loudspeakers -- a traditional preamplifier should be avoided unless it is of extraordinary quality.


http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/features-menu/general-interest-intervie...
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Matchstikman
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #8 - 07/25/16 at 15:15:20
 
I've been checking out a Jolida DAC with a tube output and analog volume control which seems to fit the bill.  With tube output I could remove the ZBOX from the chain and move that to my bedroom system which could be cool.
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Lon
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #9 - 07/25/16 at 15:18:34
 
Cool.
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #10 - 07/25/16 at 16:03:10
 
"a traditional preamplifier should be avoided unless it is of extraordinary quality."

........why, with further break-in....LS17 SE continues to bloom...especially when they put the LS27 & Ref 3 Caps in it....class A running....the authority and control and expansiveness with finer definition of instrumentations....all ARC hallmarks for sure... especially running through the ZMA.

However, running my ZDSD direct to ZMA, in particular with my Mullard's, is just wonderful. Best of both world's..... .
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Lon
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #11 - 07/25/16 at 17:01:22
 
That's cool. For me so far no preamp has cut it and I'm not going to spend more money trying, and the DirectStream is best directly in. . . have ordered the ZBit to see if that makes a difference.
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #12 - 07/25/16 at 17:34:58
 
Lon, cool. Look forward to your impressions of the ZBit.
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Decware ZDSD DAC
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #13 - 07/25/16 at 18:08:44
 
I have it coming out of my ZDSD direct to ZMA or into my LS17 SE. I'm curious to use the Balanced higher gain output of my LS17 Pre to ZBit and have it adjustable into my ZMA unbalanced.

I'm sure your curiosity lies with using the Balanced output of your PS DSD............to ZBit, then Torii III unbalanced input.
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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Lon
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #14 - 07/25/16 at 18:22:57
 
Yes, and I also have balanced out on my  Denon DVD-A1UD which is an excellent sounding unit and I use it for hi-res audio discs and for video playback, the ZBit may work well for that as well. So. . . maybe two ZBits in my future! Or a switch box. Or. . . maybe the ZBit won't be a great fit, we'll see.
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Matchstikman
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #15 - 07/25/16 at 18:29:33
 
"a traditional preamplifier should be avoided unless it is of extraordinary quality."

You could say that any Decware preamp could fall into the extraordinary quailty realm.  I would also assume (and you know what they say about people that assume) that a Decware preamp would be superior to whatever is in any DAC.

Right now I have my Bel Canto DAC going into the ZBOX which has a volume control so to some degree I already have this setup.  Right now I crank the ZBOX to the top and let the CSP do the rest.
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Lon
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #16 - 07/25/16 at 18:45:30
 
You could assume that. I have in fact four Decware preamps here and there. And they don't make my DAC sound better. Different, yes. Better?  No. Just my experience.
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Matchstikman
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #17 - 07/25/16 at 19:19:58
 
The Decware description of the CSP3 says it will make your DAC sound better.

So, Lon, if you go direct from your DAC to your amp, what do you do with your CSP2+?
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Lon
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #18 - 07/25/16 at 19:25:09
 
I have my ZP3 going into one input, and my Denon DVD-A1UD going into the other and the CSP2+ (with Jupiter caps and stepped attenuator) going into the other input on the Torii.

I know what Steve says, and believes. But one man's "better" may be another man's less accurate and pumped up sounding. Wink Anyway, I prefer the more accurate sound from the DirectStream directly into the Torii. Others may prefer it through the CSP2+. We're all a bit different.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Matchstikman
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #19 - 07/25/16 at 19:47:49
 
Lon, you have a nice setup.

With an SS amp I need to have that CSP in there to get that tube influence in the sound which probably says something about SS amps.  As it is, my SS amp only has one set of inputs which for now is the CSP.

I may have backed myself into a corner to some degree.
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Lon
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #20 - 07/25/16 at 20:13:03
 
Well, I may have said this before but seems as if you have a very enjoyable system and if you enjoy the music on it then kick back and enjoy. I've chased an ideal for a long time, have 99 percent of it and should do the same. That I don't. . . troubles me, and makes me know that I'm addicted to hardware more than I want to be and I am coming to grips with that, accepting it. But at times I wish I could go back to my youth when I was tripping on the music with a lowly system that got the job done. And at times I'm so jazzed with my current system that I forget about the equipment. I'd like to have those moments continue longer. . .and actually they are.

My recent purchase of the P10 was a good one as it has moved a part of my thinking away from equipment to the music, it has gotten me one step closer. And I don't really need to be closer, I don't want my wings to melt and to plummet.

I'm really enjoying the music today and counting my blessings. Enough so that I haven't turned on the air conditioning units, and it's warm. Our new dog Fiona likes it warm and Lucy is at work so I'm going to keep them off as long as I can and spin more tunes. This is the sort of afternoon I have worked so long for. Hope you all enjoy yours as much!
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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orangecrush
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #21 - 07/26/16 at 00:05:49
 
I will never go back to a preamp. Transparency and micro detail suffers in my system. However, I could see why in some systems people would like a less transparent and detailed sound. I prefer to have the most nuetral cleanest signal in to the amp and then tube roll to my liking. Less variables for me. Again, just preference.
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Jeff1
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #22 - 07/26/16 at 01:41:40
 
I agree with OC, less in the signal path the better. I run a ZMA direct from my player. I use the volume on my player having ZMA gain on full. Putting more dollars into less items has worked for me. If you are using more than one source for music then a preamp may be needed for switching.
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #23 - 07/26/16 at 16:18:28
 
Yes, I would put Decware Pre's in the extraordinary quality realm having used and loved my CSP3 with Jup caps for 27 months with my ZMA. I agree with Lon, with Pre, in my case now and was with my CSP3, the LS17.....it's not better - just different.

I'll either be switching it in still, a year from now, or I will sell the LS17 on US Audio Mart...if I'm consistently only playing my ZDSD direct to ZMA. Right now though, I like doing both.  

Sunday, the LS17 SE driving John Mayer Trio/TRY!, through the ZMA and Lenny Kravitz/Greatest Hits.....to name a couple....just had a grip with a soundstage and definition on the ZMA....that was incredible.

Today, I prefer the ZDSD direct to ZMA.....listening to Larry Carlton/Deep Into It...right now....sublime.  Need to Pre and not to Pre.....very fun and enjoyable. Especially, as the ARC continues to burn in its Caps.
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Why would a DAC have a volume control?
Reply #24 - 07/27/16 at 13:50:40
 
I read you Lon (re-Reading your reply #20). Flying to close to the Sun....not needed.

I'm going to stick with Tube Rolling 6922 tube types, my Pre in and out, also I like to switch out my Speaker Cables from KS6063's to 8TC. Finding with my new Pre, I like the ZMA's gain up at 12 o'clock too.

I mention the above because, no more equipment Stone, needs to come through here!  Just enjoy your damn MUSIC/System.

Having said that, I know, here it comes, contradicting myself.....I might have Jupiter Copper Foils put in my Speakers come October.....but that's it! The ZMA's Jup's to my Adagio Jup's/Copper Foil's......has me so intrigued!

Currently, running Mundorf Mcap Supremes in my Adagio's for 16 months and counting... .
Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)










http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html


Sound: The Jupiter Copper-Foil Paper & Wax seems to have everything you are looking for in a capacitor: a coherent and organic presentation, detail and smoothness come hand-in-hand, a well controlled and focussed image, rich and transparant overtones, they are all there. The image is produced against a quiet background making it sound spatious with good retrieval of the recording venue. For example on Jordi Savall's mulit-channel recording of "Ésprit D'Arménie", when you close your eyes it is as if you are sitting there in the old church building with the musician's only a few metres away. The texture and timbre of acoustic instruments seems very realistic. Comparing the Jupiter with other high quality capacitors, you get similar amounts of fine detail as you do with the Mundorf Supreme Silver Gold Oil but with more weight and coherence. The top end clarity of the Jupiter also has certain richness to it. It's organic texture and smoothness is very similar to that of the Duelund RS but with a tad more "shine" in the top octave. I guess if you want to be as close to absolute, ruler flat neutrality as possible then the Duelund RS would be your favourite. If you are looking for a tad more air at the top, then the Jupiter Copper-Foil Paper & Wax is a serious alternative. A matter of personal taste I would say. Switching to a different copper-foil capacitor, the Rike Audio Q-Cap, you get more body especially noticable with solo piano. But the Q-Cap doesn't have that same lush and intimate character that makes the Jupiter so convincing and lovable. Comparing the Jupiter with the Duelund CAST-Cu, I found there was a tad more blacker background and a little more "being there" effect with the CAST-Cu. Only a very small difference but noticable, especially on well recorded classical music with real-life acoustics. Anyway, the Jupiter Copper Foil Paper & Wax is one of my favourite capacitors!
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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