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Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii? (Read 8164 times)
astro-chris
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Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
11/22/15 at 21:04:17
 
I am still drooling over the sound of the Torii Mk III I bought about a month ago from Mark on this forum.  Being new to tubes and seeing the cost of really good tubes, I want to be sure I do everything I can to make them last as long as possible and sound their best.  Is anyone using any of the tube dampers/coolers on the market on their Torii?  If so, which tubes need/benefit the most from these devices and which ones are you using?  Parts Connexion has the Pearl ones on clearance for half price right now, so I was thinking of giving a couple a try, but would love some other opinions on whether these are good/useful.
Thanks so much,
Chris
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Palomino
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Re: Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
Reply #1 - 11/23/15 at 11:35:51
 
I use Herbies tube dampers on the input tubes.  A year ago when I tested I felt they helped the treble.  Others here are more into dampers and can comment on damping other tubes.
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Lon
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Re: Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
Reply #2 - 11/23/15 at 17:48:26
 
I use Herbie's Audio Lab tube dampers on all tubes. I don't think I have to. . . I'm not sure they make much difference on voltage regulation tubes, and on some voltage regulators I don't think they may a difference, some they do. I just like them and use them. Input tubes and power tubes I definitely find benefits in their use.
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astro-chris
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Re: Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
Reply #3 - 11/23/15 at 19:13:14
 
Hi Lon and Palomino,
Thanks so much for the tip on Herbie’s!  I use several of his products and have always been very happy with the results and the price-to-performance ratio.  Which model of tube dampers do you use?  Also, if it’s not too much trouble, what are you using as input tubes?  Do you have any specific favorites that don’t “break the bank”?
Thanks so much again,
Chris
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Palomino
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Re: Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
Reply #4 - 11/23/15 at 20:10:51
 
The ultrasonic SS-9.

I am currently using some 6n23p-EVs that Steve gave me one time when I was in the shop.

I have also used Vokshod 6N1ps, Gold Lion 6922 and 7dj8s and the 6n23ps keep ending back in my amp.

BTW, I believe I have heard your amp at Decfest.  It was what convinced me to spring for the copper beeswax caps in my Torii.  Sounded fantastic.
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Lon
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Re: Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
Reply #5 - 11/23/15 at 20:38:50
 
I'm using the RX series, various sizes and some with "pads" with an outer shell that aren't pictured on their pages currently, for the power tubes.

In the Torii I'm using a pair of Amerex 7308 that Mark58 alerted me to. For years I was using 6N1P after trying 6922, 6DJ8, 6N23 . . . nothing moved me away from the 6N1P type, and I used "super cryo'd" ones from cryoset.com  Mark convinced me to try the Amperex 7308 and along with a few shifts in other tubes both before and after (Arcturus OB3, RCA 5V4 small bottle rectifiers, RCA OA2 regulators, TAD KT-66) it all fell into place and I haven't messed with the tubes since. In my CSP2+ I use an RCA 7308 as input and a pair of unmarked NOS 7308s as the driver tubes, and a very old RCA 5Y3GT. In the ZP3 I now have another very old RCA 5Y3GT, a cryo'd TAD 12AU7, and two cryo'd TAD 12AX7s. Very happy with the system sound.
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maddog07
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Re: Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
Reply #6 - 11/30/15 at 22:43:38
 
I ask the Zenmaster his opinion about tube dampers, etc. a couple of years ago at Zenfest.  He said he had done some research into them, and found that the tube sockets are actually more susceptible to bad vibes than the tubes... but that if you're going to use something on the tubes, typically something that can be placed toward the top of the tube is where it has the potential to do the most good.  
As far as coolers.... if you poke around on the web, you will find some objective experiments done on this, that show these devices actually cause the tubes to run hotter, not cooler...
I have a commercial electrician son-in-law that has a high-dollar infrared thermometer... I have some of the old Pearl tube coolers... if you don't have some air moving over the fins... their effect on "cooling" is undetectable over time.  Takes the tube longer to heat up, but still gets just as hot, to a bit hotter in some cases.  This has been my experience.
I bought some Herbie's dampers used and I use them most of the time, "just because" - I have them.  Do they make an audible difference?  I haven't taken the time, or went to the trouble to try and determine if they do or not.  
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astro-chris
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Re: Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
Reply #7 - 12/01/15 at 20:31:55
 
Thanks so much for all the helpful info; I'll definitely avoid the Pearls, as the last thing I want to is to make the tubes run even hotter!  I guess that explains why everyone seems to have those on clearance these days Smiley
Since everyone seems very happy with Herbie, I'll give those a try
Thanks again for all the help,
Chris
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will
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Re: Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
Reply #8 - 12/03/15 at 20:13:32
 
I use a lot of Herbie's stuff too.

On my Torii MKIII with isocups, I used RXs all the time, but tuned to preferences. I tended to using them on the front power tubes, the inputs and rectifiers, or some combination of these with two sets.

My memory sense with that amp, the RX smoothed the sound with a slight sense of darkening...the combination could be good or bad in the balance of my system....Depends on the room and system tonal values; on the tubes that make up a tube set sound; and on the individual tubes, some tubes having less effect from vibration, and some warmer, some clearer.....

Depending on the end effect of all these variables, tube damping could be great with increased inner detail, or sound too dark with too much reduction in the sense of space, texture and fine detail. I seem to like minor distortions inherent to tubes at times depending on the general tonal balance...the right amount contributing to texture and liveness.

The RX were my primary for a long time, then I got some used Hal-O IIIs for my rectifiers, and comparing them, I think these were a bit more transparent....my recollection being smoothing/cleaning things without the slight darkening of the RX.

Then, with my MKIV, using Herbie's isocups under the amp, the tube damper distortion shifts were more subtle, and I used dampers less with it. Maybe just the rectifiers and inputs, though for a while now I have been using no dampers..... I got some Mad Scientist Blackpod TC feet to try, and wanted to “learn” them without dampers. I had a time finding the right positions under the MKIV, tuning away, and now it appears I have kept them.

Have not had a chance to AB with isocups, but first impressions were the TCs having better resolution without color, though being clearer took some adjustment. The resolution increase was across the spectrum, but quite notable here in the bass...tighter, realer. Were the Herbie's smoother, or a little deadening???

Do to this thread, I got out the dampers. I put HAL-O III on the front Tungsol 6L6Gs, and RX on the early 60s Heerlen Miniwatt PCC88 inputs and Mazda/Mullard GZ32s. Also some Herbies dampers that look like Ultrasonics but have a brown outer covering on the silicone looking stuff and black plastic tension rings (I could not find them on the site now) on the early 60's Sylvania 6922 gold pins with D getters in the power positions in the CSP3. So I damped 4 of my 8 tube positions.

Damping on and off was subtle in some ways but quite notable in others. On spacious recordings with "hot"upper mids, definitely better to me today....more inner space and fine detail with a bunch of dampers on...less distortions smoothing to good effect, open and natural. With warmer/darker/smoother sounding recordings, this was a little too smooth/dark for me, but pretty good. Especially since I had things tuned to my liking without the dampers, this is impressive to me. It makes me think the Mad Scientist feet are good, showing shifts clearly and inner resolution that is very good with dampers. But these feet versus the isocups is another test I don't have time for now.

So I will play more, but with this tube set, a few dampers are doing good things, and these are some pretty nicely made tubes across the board. For now the CSP3 has no dampers and the inputs, rectifiers and front power tubes on the Torii have them, now 3 of the eight positions seem a good balance.

I think that if your system/room is resolving, you will hear the dampers. Judging from my big Hal-O IIIs, it could be different on inputs, but I might suggest getting a pair of RX and Hal-o IIIs (if you can) for the inputs (generally a powerful effect there), and see how they suit your sound needs. Could send both or one back if one excels and go from there.
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Archie
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Re: Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
Reply #9 - 12/03/15 at 21:02:55
 
will wrote on 12/03/15 at 20:13:32:
Then, with my MKIV, using Herbie's isocups under the amp, the tube damper distortion shifts were more subtle, and I used dampers less with it.


This is worth noting.  I've mentioned before that prior to putting isolation under my ZMA that I had horrendous distortion at high volume.  It seems that the problems of induced vibration from the support is much greater than any airborne inducement.  Seems obvious in hind sight.  So, if dampening is a concern, start with some kind of total isolation/damping first.
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DBC
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Re: Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
Reply #10 - 12/03/15 at 21:44:08
 
Quote:
Archie wrote:

This is worth noting.  I've mentioned before that prior to putting isolation under my ZMA that I had horrendous distortion at high volume.  It seems that the problems of induced vibration from the support is much greater than any airborne inducement.  Seems obvious in hind sight.  So, if dampening is a concern, start with some kind of total isolation/damping first.


I agree with Archie that equipment vibration is generally not caused by sound waves traveling through the air but rather from floor vibrations transmitted from the floor up through the equipment rack.

I struggled with equipment rack vibration for months. Figured it was just the acoustic energy in the room. Quite by accident I read an article about speaker isolation platforms and placed one under my down firing sub. Floor vibration completely gone and equipment rack no longer vibrates.
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will
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Re: Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
Reply #11 - 12/03/15 at 21:48:19
 
Mark and I did a lot of talking about tubes, but I don't know what he sold his Torii with. What you have and how you want to change the sound is important I think.

Inputs again depend on too many things and this gear shows it if nothing gets in the way. Seems all of our systems/rooms develop organically based on their characteristic sound and where we want that to go....the total character of tonal values the sum of the parts and room. And even in the same room, if we kept everything the same and traded all your cables with mine, we would very likely change our sound notably....or tubes, or source, (or vibration management!) etc. Or...in the impossible case of all else being the same, but you have a notable 100 Hz bump from your room, and my room sucks out the 100 area, we might like different tubes.

On top of that, though there are family qualities that are useful references, none of the 6922/E88CCs I have sound alike, nor the 6DJ8/ECC88 or 7DJ8/PCC88.

I have several pairs of 6N23Ps, and they sound different...one darker and deeper, one leaner and less bass than the first, and one leaner still with less bass still and quite textured. I just listened to them yesterday in the power places in the CSP3, thinking I may have been overlooking them. They all were nice tubes, but still I prefer the early 60's Sylvania gold pin (El Gato labelled) with D getters at this point...at least the way my system is tuned.

Some years ago I sent a pair of cryo'd 6N23Ps to Steve D as I was liking some in my SE34 over the stock 6N1P or 6N2P. I was working through bass issues then and Steve said something like "no wonder you like those tubes, they don't have much bass." They were not burned in, and need that to develop bass fully…..but also, today, Steve ships 6N23Ps with some amps. I think this illustrates both points…. how a tube can be good here and not there, and that they can be pretty variable within a type...If Steve is voicing amps with them, the 6N23Ps he is using must sound pretty good! But then, in my MKIV, the ones I have are good tubes, but I have many better for my system/room and tastes.

I also have several pair of 6N1P and though family, they too are all different.

Soooo.... there are certain input tubes that many like, and this is a good indicator, but even then, it all depends. I think most older NOS tubes can be nice, but whether they fit just right at your place or mine is a crap shoot without more information.

Long story short, I would preface a request for good input tubes starting with saying what I am using, the rest of the tubes used, and how I would like things to change tonally, possibly reducing the odds of a suggestion not working.
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Archie
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Re: Anyone using tube dampers/coolers on their Torii?
Reply #12 - 12/04/15 at 00:50:10
 
DBC,

I put my speakers on isolation platforms and what you say about your down-firing sub makes perfect sense.  What I don't understand is why speaker manufactures put their speakers on spikes when spikes are a coupling system and not an isolation system?  I think a lot of boom gets tamed with isolation.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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