Forums - Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii

Greg12

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Posts: 205

Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii
10/09/15 at 01:34:24

For the last few days I've been getting intermittent signal loss on the right channel. Same problem on both inputs. I've swapped the input Tubes, no change. Tried cleaning the pins with my Caig pen and inserting/removing the input tube several times. Seemed to work for awhile but now there is only a faint signal coming again from the right channel. All the tubes are lit up. Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,

Greg

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Torii MkIII with Jupiter caps, ZP3 with Jupiter caps, DM947 Monoliths, Oppo 105, Pro-ject Rm-5.1 Se TT. Hana SH Shibata MC Cartridge 2.0mV

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mark58 Seasoned Member Posts: 5647	Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii Reply #1 - 10/09/15 at 01:38:59 Maybe the rectifier on that side isn't working. Sometimes I have to wiggle a tube a little to get it to light up. Check if the rectifier is glowing. Others more technically inclined may have other ideas. Mark.
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Greg12 Seasoned Member Posts: 205	Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii Reply #2 - 10/09/15 at 01:52:51 Well for grins I flopped all the tubes and still only get a weak signal from the right side. So I think the tubes are ok. Dirty socket? If so is there an easy way to clean those? This is the first time I've had this trouble so any ideas are greatly appreciated. Greg
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mark58 Seasoned Member Posts: 5647	Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii Reply #3 - 10/09/15 at 02:07:28 Have you thought about a problem with a pre amp or source...ZP3? Double check all connections per the owners manual too. Mark.
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Greg12 Seasoned Member Posts: 205	Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii Reply #4 - 10/09/15 at 03:01:10 Hi Mark, Well the trouble remains with either input. One input is my Oppo, the other is the ZP3. No preamp. It's weird in that I fiddle with the tubes and maybe get a signal for a bit, then it fades out to no signal minutes later. Strange.
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maddog07

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Posts: 590

Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii
Reply #5 - 10/09/15 at 03:18:45

I had a similar problem, though not exactly what you are describing, and it was one of the output power tubes. (a JJ 6CA7).

do you experience this issue at cold start-up or only after the tubes have warmed up?

do you have some spare power tubes to try?

I also accidentally "discovered" by "touch" which tube was the bad one. The tube that was faulty was noticeably "cooler" than the other three when I was removing them with a cotton jersey glove on.

I talked to Steve about this at the fest and he explained what was likely going on in the tube - it was still glowing - the heater still working - it was just not amplifying.

The effected channel had more noise in it, and slightly less volume... the tubes had to be on for several minutes before I got a "pop" sound... then a few more minutes and another smaller pop. Prior to the pops, the tubes/sound was normal.
After the second pop, no more pops, just noticeably less volume from the channel that had the "pops" and more background hiss/noise if you listened to the effected channel up close to the speaker with no music playing.
Steve said after the pop, likely a cracked/broke connection in the tube opening up when it got hot, the effected channel of the amp became a "push" only and not push/pull, as only one tube was operational explaining the lack of volume from that channel.

I have several other sets and types of output tubes, so I was able to to isolate it to an output tube pretty quick.

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Greg12

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Posts: 205

Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii
Reply #6 - 10/09/15 at 03:56:59

Well, I pulled the kt66's out and put in the el34's that came with the Torii. So far so good. What's strange though is I had earlier taken all the right side tubes and switched them with the left side tubes and the trouble remained in the right channel. We'll see how it goes. Maybe exercising the sockets with the tube rolling cleaned a dirty contact? If it keeps working fine for a few days I'll put the kt66's back in and see what happens.

Thanks guys,

Greg

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Greg12

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Posts: 205

Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii
Reply #7 - 10/10/15 at 04:19:02

Well maddog, you may have nailed it. Everything is rock solid so far with the el34's and to be honest, I love this amp with these tubes. In a few days I may stick the kt66's back in to see if I can replicate the problem. If so I will try the touch test and see if one is running cooler than the rest.

Greg

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mark58

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Posts: 5647

Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii
Reply #8 - 10/10/15 at 18:06:25

OK Greg, I guided you to a ZP3 with Bees Wax Caps at a great price. Now I want to guide you to some great Tubes. If you really like the EL 34 sound like I do these may be right up your alley. The RFT EL-34s are great. They can be found labeled for many different companies, most often Siemens or sometimes just un-marked tubes as Upscale Audio had for a while. Bret Jesse is currently selling 70's versions for $100 a piece but you can do much better on ebay. I have three quads I bought from a Decware member...two of the quads were NOS, so I haven't been watching ebay sales but a seller called "eurolang" seemed to have some good product...I never bought from him so this isn't a recommendation of the seller. He even has some un-marked for about 170 or 160. And he often uses the make an offer option so I would offer him less than he is asking on any purchase you might be considering.

The ones in my Torii currently look exactly like the ones in the link but the numbers on mine are 088. If any one can tell me what their meaning is...please do. Even the boxes are the same. When I bought mine the seller thought they were the narrow base from the 60's although I now think they are not narrow bases but likely 70's vintage. If the tubes have a flatish top with a dimple...they are RFTs...no dimple...they are fakes. RFT manufactured these from the 50's and 60's all the way to the late 80's. As usual, the consensus seems to be the older the better but mine sound amazing...so 70's is probably fine. Mark.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-EL34-power-tubes-SIEMENS-o-getter-EL-34/311460131211?...

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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare

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Greg12 Seasoned Member Posts: 205	Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii Reply #9 - 10/12/15 at 17:42:11 Been mulling this over since you posted it Mark. Been trying to figure out how to justify the expense to my wife. Drawing a blank so far. :'(
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maddog07

Seasoned Member

seeker of truth

Posts: 590

Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii
Reply #10 - 10/13/15 at 18:47:52

I have several different sets of output tubes that work in my Torii III. I like the JJ 6CA7's a lot... good thing they are cheap though... cause some go south prematurely. But as long as you have 4 working properly, they sound superb. These were the stock supplied output tubes for Torii's for a long time, but Steve got tired of dealing with the quality/consistency issues of them and switched to Tung-Sol's. If you want a little less "vivid" sound, the Gold Lion KT-66's are also superb sounding. And you can balance them out with a little more vivid input tube like the National 7DJ8's which are also relatively inexpensive right now. Ain't tube rolling a blast ......!!!

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mark58 Seasoned Member Posts: 5647	Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii Reply #11 - 10/13/15 at 19:16:07 Maddog, have you ever tried the 70's RFT EL-34s...usually labeled Siemens? From what I've read, they are very durable and can take much more punishment...voltage...than the JJs. I haven't had one fail yet. Mark.
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mark58

Seasoned Member

Posts: 5647

Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii
Reply #12 - 10/13/15 at 19:33:54

Greg, I think I was told these will last 5000 hours in the Torii. Decware Amps are easier on tubes than many other brands of Amps. Just divide the cost of a Quad by 5000 hours. So if you paid $225 you could say they cost 4.5 cents per hour.

If someone knows the lifespan of the 70's RFTs please share. I don't think the 80's RFTs are as good as the earlier ones. Mark.

PS...Greg, another option might be the Russian tubes I've linked to below. I bought quads of the 70'-80's version that I haven't listened to yet...they would cost $55 plus $14 shipping for a quad. I also bought and listened to the more expensive and older tubes manufactured in the Photon plant in the 50's and 60's. Several of us here have bought from this seller without a problem and I think Syd is still using his Russian Power Tubes. When I got new speaker cables that fixed brightness in the high end...I went back to the RFTs. Just do a search using the name of the tube or Russian power tubes and I think you'll find many impressions. These tubes aren't as "Vivid" as maddog says of the RFTs but they are very nice for the money...worth a shot. IMO.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6P3S-E-6L6-6L6GT-Matched-Selected-Quad-Gold-Grid-NOS-NEW...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1540-6P3S-E-6L6-6L6GT-CloselyMatched-QUAD-Photon-NEW-NOS...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6P3S-E-6L6-6L6GT-CloselyMatched-PAIR-Photon-NEW-NOS-OTK-...

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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare

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will

Seasoned Member

Posts: 3087

Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii
Reply #13 - 10/14/15 at 06:36:31

Greg, As you first suggested, it does not make a lot of sense that it was failing power tube when the problem remained on one side after switching tubes side to side. You asked if there is an easy way to clean the sockets. Music Direct and others sell a vacuum tube cleaning set that has all you need to clean tubes and sockets, now just $25.

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-1158-caig-vacuum-tube-survival-kit.aspx

Also if you roll a whole lot, the sockets can get a little loose in how they grab the pins.

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Greg12

Seasoned Member

Posts: 205

Re: Intermittent signal loss on right channel of Torii
Reply #14 - 10/14/15 at 23:54:24

Hi Will,

I actually went back to the kt66 after a trouble free day with the el34s, problem gone. So I really think it was a dirty socket. I kept putting Caig contact cleaner on the power tube pins as I was rolling them and I think eventually it cleaned whatever was on the socket. Thanks for the link to Music Direct. I'll check it out. Should be a more effective and quicker way to clean the sockets.

Maddog07 - I have 2 sets of those National 7DJ8's and I like how they sound w/ any of the power tubes sets I have. (KT66,77 and the EL34's) I should order some more while they are still $30 at Upscale Audio. Great tube for reasonable money.

Mark58 - I have a bonus check coming soon, I think I may get a set of the RFT's. It's that or a Reference 3 Power cable from Anticables.com. My wife and I really liked what that cord did to the sound when plugged into the Torii III. (and we have a $250 gift card there 8-) Man there are so many ways to burn money with this hobby. :-/

Greg

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Torii MkIII with Jupiter caps, ZP3 with Jupiter caps, DM947 Monoliths, Oppo 105, Pro-ject Rm-5.1 Se TT. Hana SH Shibata MC Cartridge 2.0mV

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