Forums - DECFEST 2015

beowulf Seasoned Member Posts: 1449	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #50 - 10/08/15 at 09:33:25 BadWolf, thanks for your impressions. I saw them on the table, but was beginning to think they were just a static display. Hopefully those monos and the new preamp will be available at the next fest! I'm actually going to try and make it to that one if at all possible.
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Dave1210 Seasoned Member Posts: 959	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #51 - 10/08/15 at 11:23:04 Thanks BadWolf. What was your favorite amp/speaker combo? Beowulf, I hope to be there in person next year as well! I also thought of one additional question, specific to the ZMA. What were the KT66's biased at?
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Lin Ex Member	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #52 - 10/08/15 at 14:25:08 I would guess the speakers were around 7/8' from the couch with 5/6' behind them. The wall behind the speakers has a good size opening into the entry hallway.
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stone_of_tone

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Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #53 - 10/08/15 at 16:47:41

I feel your pain JimmyJet (REPLY #42). The Jr. might be to similar to my ZMA....and I should have ordered the Torii IV, for my long winter's comparison. However, I do have the JR. coming on in come November.

Listening in parallel Volumes for both my ZMA and new Torii Jr., should be a lot of fun! Come Spring, maybe somebody gets one of the two? But, I will tell you.....I might be reluctant to part with either. I'm trying to swing the new PRE from Steve as well. I know it will be the only PRE I could except in my System sans my CSP3.

Good luck Jimmy, in your choice between Jr. or Torii IV. You really can't go wrong........

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Archie Seasoned Member Posts: 2731	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #54 - 10/08/15 at 17:48:34 I'm getting the impression that the Torii Jr. might be better named the ZMA Jr.?
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stone_of_tone

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Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #55 - 10/08/15 at 18:14:26

Not so fast on that Arch... . After I spend through mid March of 2016 with her...rotating out and in with my ZMA: I will do my best to describe in detail, one towards the other. I should have the Jr. sometime in November. With extended listening...maybe she shares more with the IV?

Oh, I should mention....I'm so pleased with my System...especially to play/listen at Live levels, when I want to. Plus, with/because of my very recent upgrades-they have taken me where I wanted to be....I'm set. Just more music ~ more music/coming in.

BUUUUUUUUT, NOWS the time I can do this....and I so respect and love Steve's Amps.....I look forward to comparing the two....being fair to the Jr. Per my SPL meter.....when I want to go there....above 84db avg. SPL.

Own:
ZDSD
CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps
Zen Mystery Amplifier

Pending:
Torii Jr.
New PRE

Sold:
SE84CS (Listened to for 13 years)
Super Zen CKC
Torii III

All = purchased new from Decware.

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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
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Decware ZDSD DAC
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XLOProPcord
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Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
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BadWolf

Seasoned Member

Posts: 107

Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #56 - 10/08/15 at 20:37:44

Dave, picking a favorite amp speaker combo is incredibly difficult. The one that stood out to me the most was the new Mini Torii with the UFO transformers with the El Caminos. Of course the El Caminos kind of stole the show as far as speakers go, they sounded great with all the amps and all the music, and people would continually switch back to them the entire fest. The new Mini sounds wonderful, I really wish I could have compared it to one with the old transformers. The El Camino and Mini combination is all the more impressive as the speakers aren’t the most efficient and the Mini of course is a very low watt amp. It drove them effortlessly and had incredible richness and bass. Even having owned a Mini for years I’m still amazed at how versatile and capable it is. To anyone ever trying out the Mini it must absolutely be allowed to warmup for 20 minutes or more to show its true potential.

I think someone said the ZMA was set to 60.

Some other standouts and thoughts from the fest -

The Rachael was incredible and would be on the top of my list if I were to consider getting another amp.

I think the Torii Jr. had something wrong with it some of the time, maybe a bad connection or tube, or was just so new it was still in the earliest stages of being broken in. Even with that it really stood out with a level of detail and clarity that was hard to believe.

Randy’s speakers were a real treat when they were setup properly.

The Torii MK4 got a lot of use and sounded great as always. Unlike previous fests I could really tell the difference between it and the ZMA. Maybe due to the ZDSD. I can see why the ZMA often wins when compared to the MK4 in back and forth comparisons. I personally think it’s a mistake to compare them that way though, as they are very different amps. Rather listening to one for an hour or so, taking a break, and then listing to the other for an hour or so would be a better way to choose IMHO.

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Zen OTL, SE84UFO25, Mini Torii II and III, “El Camino” MTM speakers, Schiit Gungnir Multibit, DIY "Zbit", dedicated circuits.

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Tripwr1964 Seasoned Member Posts: 435	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #57 - 10/09/15 at 03:06:13 where the el caminos the silver ones?
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BadWolf Seasoned Member Posts: 107	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #58 - 10/09/15 at 04:00:14 Yes, they’re the silver ones. Although when they are made available they’ll have a different name.
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Dave1210 Seasoned Member Posts: 959	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #59 - 10/09/15 at 11:26:47 BadWolf...how would you describe the differences between the ZMA and MK4?
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JimmyJet

Verified Member

Posts: 39

Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #60 - 10/09/15 at 16:33:56

Thanks stone_of_tone, I look forward to your evaluation of the JR.

In regards to some of the conversation between you and BadWolf, allow me to throw in my 2 cents regarding a couple of things:

1) just being there all day on Friday, from that listening perspective, I would have to agree that the JR did sound like a "ZMA JR", but I don't think there was anything wrong with it, but that it was a new production piece that had not been burned in - I don't know what day you guys were there, but if you were there on Saturday and not Friday, just let me tell you it sounded very thin, albeit transparent and revealing, on Friday. But by Saturday morning, it was much warmer sounding, which leads me to my next point,

2) there was a reluctance to keep the amps on throughout the day because of concern of "heating up the room" - well, okay, but how about just turning down the thermostat in the shop? I mean it was only 55 outside. Point being, we can't really fairly compare amps if they are being switched on/off every time you want to demo a different one. (Also, if it's true that the JR being used was truly a new production unit, it really should have "cooked" a few days before the fest.

Not trying to sound like a complainer, but I think in order to judge the amps fairly so as to make an appropriately informed decision to purchase, these amps need to be 1) broken in properly before the fest, and 2) left on during switching amongst different amps for comparison. I'm mean, this ain't solid state... agreed? Cheers! 8-)

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BadWolf

Seasoned Member

Posts: 107

Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #61 - 10/09/15 at 17:54:29

Dave, I’m really hesitant to try and describe the differences between the ZMA and MK4. It would be so easy to come across as sounding like I think one is better than the other which I personally don’t think is the case, they are just different. I heard Steve describe the difference really well in a couple sentences, but I can’t remember how he put it. I think probably the biggest difference and the one I noticed most this time is dampening, the ZMA has a lot more than the MK4. When I originally compared them and decided on the MK4 two years ago the difference was almost imperceptible to me. The next year wasn’t much different. So this fest was the first time they seemed dramatically different. Maybe the way the MK4 was set made all the difference, it has setting for bass control, impedance, and feedback. Just comparing two MK4s to one another with those set differently could make them sound like two very different amps, and I have no idea how they were set at any fest. I actually don’t know how they are set on my MK4 right now, I just put them on what sounds best. That’s a huge variable that I never even really thought about until just now. My suggestion to add to Jimmy’s, maybe the default, or “best” settings should be marked on the fest amps so one could at least have a good starting point when doing comparisons.

JimmyJet, I totally agree with your comments. I wasn’t aware that was why they weren’t leaving the amps on. I also heard that the isolation transformer couldn’t handle more than one of the large amps at a time. Whatever the case it does pretty much invalidate most of the quick comparisons, as one is always comparing a warm amp to a cold one.

As far as the Jr I want to be abundantly clear I don’t think there is anything wrong with the amp, rather something seemed to be going on that was affecting its performance on Friday, which is when I heard it the most. The more I think about it the more I think it was probably just due to it not having many hours on it. That being said I was still stunned by the quality of its sound. I would love to hear it more after it is properly broken in. From what I heard and if naming it were up to me I’d sooner name it the ZMA Jr than the Torii Jr. To me it sounded more like was in the ZMA family than the Torii. Just my totally subjective impression in less than ideal circumstances. If I heard them again today I might say the opposite, so don’t base any purchase decisions on it.

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Zen OTL, SE84UFO25, Mini Torii II and III, “El Camino” MTM speakers, Schiit Gungnir Multibit, DIY "Zbit", dedicated circuits.

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Dave1210

Seasoned Member

Posts: 959

Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #62 - 10/09/15 at 19:06:24

Hi BadWolf. I understand your hesitation. That said, I think you can communicate your observations objectively. I think about reviews as a starting point, and if it helps someone start closer to the finish line, that’s success. Most of us can’t afford to bring in every single amp to determine if it’s a good fit. Reading observations from those that have done comparisons can be helpful.

I always look forward to reading what people have to say after Decfest. For some reason, it appears that the volume of post-Decfest comments is lower this year versus previous years. Maybe folks are still in a zen like trance from the amazing sound!

The setup this year seemed fairly conducive for comparisons of different amps/speakers, but it sounds like there are still some optimizations that could help. Comparing a warm amp to a cold one is far from ideal.

I didn’t think you were supposed to leave tube amps powered on if they aren’t connected to a load. Although I think I heard Chris say it was fine as long as music wasn’t playing through the amp to saturate the transformers. That is news to me.

Also, I think Steve could create a dummy load for the amps so they can remain on/warm all the time with damaging them. I use the below with my guitar amp.

http://www.thdelectronics.com/product_page_hotplate.html

I appreciate your willingness to share and engage in a discussion.

Cheers!

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JimmyJet

Verified Member

Posts: 39

Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #63 - 10/09/15 at 19:58:50

BadWolf and Dave1210,

I just got off the phone with Steve an hour ago and he told me it was the power supply that couldn't handle more than two very well (someone else at the Fest told me it was due to room temp.) So, there's the answer; however, toward the latter part of Friday, the JR stayed on for 3 hours mostly idling while people listened to the ZMA & MK4 vs the JR -- and that's when I think it finished its break-in period because as I said before, it sounded like a different amp Saturday morning.

As far as the JR being in the same class as the ZMA, you are correct and that is not a totally subjective statement. If you go back to either page 3 of this thread, I posted a long review of DecFest and mentioned in there that Steve told me the ZMA and JR were tuned/optimized for linearity, whereas the MK's were tuned for depth and sound stage. Two very different types of circuits.

For me, I am all about a huge sound stage and the MK4 actually had me hearing Kieth Moon's drums being played 20 feet behind the rest of the instruments/vocals -- I've never experience front-to-back sound stage before; only left-right. To say the least, when I heard this, I was put into a trance.

For others, a very linear and detailed amp is what is nirvana for them -- and this is where the ZMA comes in, and the JR to some extent. After I heard the JR broken in by Saturday morning, I would say, that the JR is a cross between the ZMA and the MK4 - linear and detailed, and yet a bit of warmth and sound stage as well.

After speaking some more with Steve on the phone today, I am going with the MK4 as well as his entire phono stage including the SUT's, and ZBOX - a big order, but I have to be able to re-create that depth at home - I'm hooked and I need my Decware fix... :o

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Torii Mk IV [beeswax, attenuator]

Klipsch KG4's [Crites' upgrades

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stone_of_tone

Seasoned Member

Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 3217

Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #64 - 10/09/15 at 22:05:12

Congrats JimmyJet on your System order.

I decided not to buy the Jr. To close to my ZMA. The evolution of my System this past year and most recently, what I have done....I'm locked in to musicality I only dreamed of.

Now, for me, I will do some Pre 6922 Tube rolling from Upscale Audio. Uncle Kevy has a couple more pairs I want to hear what they can do vs. my NOS Ediswans.

Cheers, and hoping you get your Decware real soon...... .

Listening Room:
Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)/Sandwich weighted for Isolation
Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

Shunyata Ztron Alpha Digital power cord
Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder (@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/176.4)
{also @ kept/-20 Ref Level & -.5db or -1.0 Input volume Level}

WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030
Decware CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps (NOS/Platinum/Telefunken 6922/E88CC .....for Input Tube)
**********************************************
10 of 10 for Input tube & 8 of 10 voltage for Output tubes
Volume adjustment used at 0 to 50%
**********************************************
WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030

Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
***NOS/Platinum/Ediswan's CV2492/6922 in my A12 an B12 positions***
ZMA adjusted at 50% to 90% of Volume

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Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
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Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)

Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)

XLO Pro Power Cords to CSP3 an ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
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Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3

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JimmyJet

Verified Member

Posts: 39

Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #65 - 10/10/15 at 16:26:53

Thanks SoT - looking forward to it. Next week I pickup my new turntable built by Dave Archambault of Vinyl Nirvana: an upgrade AR sub-chassis, new plinth, new acrylic/polymer arm board, new SME M-2 9 tonearm, and Dynavector 17D3. However, I won't be able to listen to it because I don't have a phono stage with SUT's for the LOMC cart.. :'(

Didn't realize you already had a ZMA, so yeah, you don't need the JR - quite a rig you have there ;)

After I get the Decware gear, my next adventure will be cable rolling... ;)

Cheers!

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Torii Mk IV [beeswax, attenuator]

Klipsch KG4's [Crites' upgrades

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IanO Verified Member Posts: 22	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #66 - 10/10/15 at 17:39:28 Anyone get to compare the Jr against the se84 ufo or Rachel with regards to transparency and soundstage? Obviously more power with the Jr, but I wondered how it compares when it comes to delicacy and imaging?!. I use Dm946's so any of these should match well.
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Steve Deckert

Administrator

If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 6397

Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #67 - 10/11/15 at 18:56:30

Quote:

Hopefully a couple simple questions...

1) About how loud was the music playing in the room? I'm sure it varied throughout the weekend, but did anyone take any measurements? It seemed fairly loud on the video feed.
2) About how far were the speakers from the listening position (couch)? How far were the speakers from the front wall? Is the room treated? You can't see any treatments from the video feed.
3) Were the digital sources being fed directly to the amps via RCA or was there something else in the signal path?

The volume varies, however the peoples voices in the listening room behind the couch and in the adjacent room are a relative constant throughout the show. That said, you can always tell how loud the speakers are relative to the talking.

The speakers are placed on a 10 foot arc from the listening position in most of the videos because I had one clearly marked out on the floor. The distance from the front wall is on average 4 to 5 feet. The lamp sets on a shelf up against the front wall. The wall is not flat. Room has hidden bass traps, minimal diffusion, normal amount of absorption.

While pre-amps were available, to my knowledge one was never used. On Friday for the first 1/2 of the day, I used my tape machines as preamps until someone asked to hear the ZDSD straight into the amp. From that point on for the rest of the fest the ZDSD was always directly connected to the amplifier's RCA inputs.

These comments apply to all the videos from this years fest.

Steve

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Steve Deckert

Administrator

If the 1st watt
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Posts: 6397

Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #68 - 10/11/15 at 20:14:30

Some great discussion, here’s some thoughts…

The setup was never intended for AB comparison because the isolation transformers I use will support only one amplifier at a time. On Friday, when the TORII JR was said to sound bad there were two amplifiers plugged into one isolation transformer.

Getting into an AB or ABC frenzy over amplifies is too much hooking and unhooking to be very productive, and setting up a switcher, while giving reasonable comparisons between amplifiers, disqualifies the transparency of all of them, so I could see no reasonable way to do it. Listening to an amplifier for an hour and then changing to a different one is generally the best approach.

Having the amplifiers pre-warming would have been nice, I will try to get more isolation transformers for next year so that can be done. All three of those amps use VR tubes that require 22 minutes to stabilize so listening less than that amount of time would have been counter productive.

All the amplifiers at the fest were fully broken in, including the TORII JR. All the tubes were new and each amp was QC tested with the channels matched to within a few milliwatts.

As for comparisons between the JR and the ZMA, they are in fact closer to each other than they are to the TORII MK4, the similarity being the higher damping better bass control. Otherwise the two amps are quite different. ZMA with the big power and incredible musicality, JR with a touch less of both, but slightly higher resolution.

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stone_of_tone Seasoned Member Listen Often/Listen Deep Posts: 3217	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #69 - 10/12/15 at 14:36:33 Thanks Steve, for the clarifications on the ZMA and Jr. If I could swing both the Jr. and the new PRE.....believe me I would. I look forward to read from you how the new PRE fleshes out and purchasing. I know nothing else could replace my CSP3.
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IanO Verified Member Posts: 22	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #70 - 10/14/15 at 18:08:18 And in comparison with the se84 and Rachel??
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Steve Deckert

Administrator

If the 1st watt
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Posts: 6397

Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #71 - 10/16/15 at 03:57:03

I am making progress with the 72 hours of video from the fest. Here is an excerpt from Friday with the Radial speakers (Model ERRx) paired to the Rachael (Model SE34I.4). I had Tungsol 6L6G new production output tubes in the amp. No preamp was used.

Compared to the stock EL34 output tubes the 6L6G Drop the power and have a more dreamy feel.
https://decware.wistia.com/medias/ox62o3ucm5

Steve

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Steve Deckert Administrator If the 1st watt sucks why continue? Posts: 6397	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #72 - 10/16/15 at 04:20:18 I will keep posting the videos here as I find them. Then I'll put them all in one place somewhere so people can review the whole fest. Steve
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Steve Deckert Administrator If the 1st watt sucks why continue? Posts: 6397	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #73 - 10/16/15 at 19:20:54 Here's an excerpt from the fest with the Zen Open Baffle paired with the SE34I.4 6 watt Rachael. Tungsol 6L6G output tubes were used. ZCD240 as the source. No preamp. https://decware.wistia.com/medias/s19vj0x7qg Steve
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Brian Seasoned Member Posts: 903	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #74 - 10/17/15 at 05:16:52 I missed being in the house the weekend of the festival, so I am glad to get to hear these recordings. Thank you, Steve.
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MARKH Verified Member Posts: 4	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #75 - 10/20/15 at 09:18:44 Hi Steve You posted a link to the Fest at 19:20 on 10/16/2015 would you be so kind as to tell me what were you playing, sounded like double bass and piano. My thanks :)
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Dave1210 Seasoned Member Posts: 959	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #76 - 10/27/15 at 02:56:17 Hi Mark...have you tried the Shazam app to identify the song? It's usually quite effective, even with small clips of music. I used it to identify a couple of tracks from Decfest. Cheers.
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MARKH Verified Member Posts: 4	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #77 - 10/27/15 at 14:27:17 Dave Downloaded the app and my question answered. My sincere thanks
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Dave1210 Seasoned Member Posts: 959	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #78 - 10/27/15 at 21:21:04 You're welcome Mark.
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Steve Deckert Administrator If the 1st watt sucks why continue? Posts: 6397	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #79 - 11/01/15 at 15:57:15 Here is a video from the fest comparing the Torii MK4 to the ZMA using Bob's Silver Prototype Speakers https://zenamps.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/bobs20151.mp4 Steve
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maddog07

Seasoned Member

seeker of truth

Posts: 590

Re: DECFEST 2015
Reply #80 - 11/04/15 at 02:21:01

folks.... I've said this before, but worth repeating again here after this years fest.... "There is no "best" Decware amp". They are only "different" and depending on your speakers, sources, room and mostly your personal preferences, will determine which one is "best" for you. I've heard them all, many times at the fests, and have owned three. I currently only have one at the moment - a Torii III w/Jupiters. They will have to pry this amp out of my cold, dead hands because I have yet to hear any other amp, at any price, that is better (to my ears) when driving single, high-efficiency, full-range driver speakers with no crossovers. If there's a better amp for this kind of speaker - I haven't found it yet. Over 30 years of chasing the holy grail and this is as close as I've ever been to "live", musicians in my room, totally engaging music in my listening room.

so.... sorry you guys, or gals, looking for a recommendation or some kind of subjective ranking of Decware amps - can't be done - doesn't exist - not possible. You're just gonna have to mosey on in to Peoria and hear for yourself, or just order one - there is a money-back guarantee you know - as long as you're willing to wait for it to be built. And... you can go "all Decware" and never look back if you just want to get off the merry-go-round - if you're so inclined.

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Decware Torii MK3, Theta Digital Miles, RME ADI Dac-2 FS, Aesthetix Calypso, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12's & 15's, Betsy WOW/AMT's, Hawthorne Trio's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost, Decware and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80 Sig.

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Lon Seasoned Member "Love without guts is worthless!" Philip K. Dick Posts: 25751	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #81 - 11/04/15 at 21:16:18 Ha MD, you said it again. . . and it's still right. And I'll add: a SEASONED Decware amp is an amazing thing!
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beowulf Seasoned Member Posts: 1449	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #82 - 11/05/15 at 22:23:28 I feel like (from the video at least) the ZMA seemed like it had a bit more authority in the bass, and a bit better grip on the speakers ... but I don't know if the volume was the same at any point. They both sounded wonderful though.
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MARKH Verified Member Posts: 4	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #83 - 11/13/15 at 08:36:03 Hi Does anyone know if there will be any photos posted of the 2015 fest
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MARKH Verified Member Posts: 4	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #84 - 01/24/16 at 08:46:10 Hi Does anyone know if any photos of the 2015 Decfest have been posted as I have not yet seen. Regards Mark :)
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martin Senior Member Posts: 95	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #85 - 04/04/16 at 01:30:14 Any news or plans yet for Decfest 2016?
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Lin Ex Member	Re: DECFEST 2015 Reply #86 - 04/04/16 at 04:13:24 Normally it is the first weekend in October.
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