So, before I go to bed I figured I'd start a thread about the project Palomino and I have been hinting about. I said in a few threads my goal was to have the project done by the end of November...cutting it kinda close, at 10:36pm tonight, I plugged in...a pair of (what Palo has dubbed) El Camino speakers like what we heard at Decfest.

A couple quick notes about this build -

First off, I don't know Bob's intentions with these speakers - I could see them as a kit, but only for experienced speaker builders. These were challenging, but fun to build from a "flat pack" as we did. You'd have to be a very experienced woodworker to build these from nothing but a blueprint.  Palomino and I got the opportunity to build our own set, so we could demo them in our setups, offer suggestions, and start some discussions on them here in the forums.

Secondly - Bob is an amazing woodworker. These pieces were cut with laser like precision. As a  professional woodworker in my youth (granted it was building spiral stairs), and now casual woodworker, this is some great work! Seeing Bob's completed work, I knew he was good, but seeing his work and building it, WOW, this is amazing.

Lastly, any mistakes in the build are completely mine.

Just a couple photos for now as I need to be up in a few hours to drive 150 miles to work. I've been listening to the speakers: code named El Camino now for a couple of hours - I'm liking what I'm hearing!


A humble start - Drawing it out and sizing up the pieces to wrap our heads around the build.




A rough idea of what they are going to look like on the inside. This is excluding the braces that go behind the drivers, and the PVC tubes that port into the horn section. Clever design - and it appears to work! These have much more bass than these little drivers should!




And in the listening room




I need to crash, it's 12:30am and I need to be up in 4.5 hours. I'll post some better photos and Palo and I can write up more about our build.

+100 on Bob's precision cuts.  Having built a couple of these style cabinets, Bob made this waaaaaay easier.  Still I have to agree with Raven, this is not a build for the beginner.

Bob sent us the "precision pieces" and sound dampening materials, not the big side pieces which really add a lot of weight.  He also sourced the drivers and xover parts, and had them drop shipped to Raven's house.

Raven did the majority of the cabinet work.  I helped with the internal horn construction and built the xovers.

I don't think Bob's intent is to sell flat packs.  This was a way for him to inexpensively get a set of speakers in our hands for review - in our different environments.  I'll be running Rachael/Chord/Mac and Raven ZMA/Direct Stream/PC.  

Where but in the Decware community would you have this kind of collaboration?

Anyway, I liked the El Caminos at Decfest and look forward to hearing them in my room.

Oh yeah, I think I figured out why he cut the corners on the X-over board, and I'm kinda glad you followed suit -

Once you get the braces, buffalo boards, PVC ports, and all the wiring in, you really don't have much room to navigate in there! Especially when you're stuffing it, and your arm and a wad of wires into a 4.5" speaker bore with a flashlight in your teeth. Having shorter corners helped me to rotate the X-overs in place. If I were to do it again, I'd try to place the X-over different, and/or use much longer internal speaker wire than seems necessary so I could navigate and install once all the parts are in. Or...I'd have the X-over all wired and installed before the side panel goes on, and just label the leads for MTM. But knowing us boys and how we like to change/monkey with things, I'd like the X-over to be as accessible as possible for easy upgrades.

That's an idea - for now I'm keeping them as stock as possible so we have a good example of what the speakers really sound like. Palo and I had all sorts of tweaks/ideas we wanted to try on this pair, but Bob reeled us in by reminding us we were supposed to be reviewing what would effectively be a set of *his* speakers.

If I were to build another pair, and go full-monkey on these, I have a list of things I would change to make them mine. Unfortunately, many of these changes, I have no idea if they would improve the sound or not...seeing as how Bob has basically tuned these speakers with the parts as I have them. If I were to change the wood, or change crossover parts, or put sand ballast in it...all these changes can have a drastic affect on the sound, that might not be good - even though they might technically be "better".

So I ran some break-in time on these last night. There is a bit of discussion over in the PS Audio forums about PCM and "pri-ringing" and how DSD sounds "softer" or "flatter" in comparison - especially with the latest Firmware release of the DirectStream DAC. I had an idea that I might immerse myself in acoustic recordings in DSD format for a week solid, and see if DSD still felt flat to me, or if my "expectation" of PCM sound had faded and DSD sounded "normal". Lot's of quotes, but I hope you get what I mean. It's like if you give up soda for a month, then soda tastes impossibly syrupy sweet to you, meanwhile all other drinks taste normal.

Anyhow, due to work and house projects, and this speaker build, instead of immersing myself in acoustic straight to DSD recordings, I basically had zero listening time. I either worked, worked on the house, or wound down catching up on some TV shows. So last night I come back from my weekly road trip to Peoria, and I warm up the ZMA and plug into the El Camino's and play nothing but DSD for a few hours last night. Opus3 and Blue Coast, all sounded great; very detailed, and *very* tape like. The speakers sound *great*! and I think they are really going to give the MG-944 a run for their money.

Now, I'm not making any final judgement - these are still a long way from breaking in I think - I also don't want to spoil Palomino's listening impressions - so I'm not going to elaborate more than these sound great. No boomy bass or anything in my room. I might even get off my arse and take some in room mreasurements with REW.  :)

More photos and such to follow.

I haven't used REW in years - I bought a USB microphone with a MiniDSP set I purchased with the intention of adding another 21" subwoofer to my 7.1 Home Theater system, plus to measure changed in my room due to sound treatment...but that whole project got nixed when they stopped making that 21" subwoofer!

Fast Forward to today - I have the USB Measurement Mic, MiniDSP, and TWO 18" subwoofers that have been sitting in storage for over a year, and just no time to build, setup, and measure. I really hope to be getting back on this in December - barring any more house projects or anything weird happening.

After you left, I swapped between the MG944 and the El Camino a bit - I've never really realized how friggen loud the MG944 are till we went from the Gallo to the 944 and from the 944 back to the El Caminos.

Some observations now that Palomino has heard the speakers.

I love my MG944, they have a texture to them that I love. Male voices sound rich and warm, but female voices can sound like they are on the edge of sibilance. I've always liked the punch of the bass with the MG944, and adding a subwoofer to pick up the really low stuff, the 944 just walk most anything at double the price.

But then you put the El Camino next to them. Damn! The bass is HUGE compared to the 944. The Treble is silkier and female voices now sound more natural. I immediately miss the high frequency extension the 944 have, but compared to the El Camino the 944 sounds a tad harsh. The El Camino also have a wider sweet spot compared to the 944. But one thing that threw me off...we setup the speakers in more of a near field listening "perfect triangle" for the tests; about 7' between speakers, about 7' from the tweeters to the listeners ears. I don't usually listen this close but Palo's room is smaller and this is more his listening setup. When I sat down in that sweet spot the sound just wrapped around me like it was surround sound - it was very enjoyable. But in this configuration, the 944 seem to have much more of that wrap-around-sound then the Camino! Granted, this could totally be a room thing, it just surprised me considering the beaminess of the 944 tweeters.

The Anthony Gallo Reference 3.1 in the mix - just couldn't keep up with it's lower efficiency. The speakers feel like I want a much bigger amp, and/or the dedicated sub-amp (the speakers have built in 10" subs that are run with the MTM off the top binding posts, but can be run by themselves with a dedicated amp off the bottom binding posts). I never did hear back from Anthony Gallo if I could use any amp with these, or if I need their dedicated amp for the subs. The imaging with these wrap around tweeters that Gallo builds is pretty amazing, but I think the El Camino sound over all is more musical, and simply edges these speakers out of my music room.

Back to the El Camino - While Palo calls these "audiophile" sounding, which to us means more detail oriented/accurate, I find them very musical; especially when put up next to the 944 which have that slightly edgy high end extension to them. The Camino sound silky and pleasant, and the bass extension that I really didn't think I missed was alluring; suddenly there was all this depth to the sound that I had forgotten was there. And like Palo said, I felt it in the floor, in my chest, and in the air! That's pretty impressive for 4 little 5" drivers!

One issue I had that we are going to take up with Bob (because it's probably an issue with my assembly or tuning), when they were new there was a bit of a flat spot in the bass; just one note that seemed to fall flat compared to all the others. It's gotten better with the drivers breaking in though.  I think Palomino picked it out as well when we put some bass heavy tracks on - specially Daft Punk's - Doin' it right. I've never heard the ZMA run out of steam on this track with other speakers, and when I have a sub inline, the track has punch and depth. With the El Camino I had depth and punch, and on one or two notes it seemed to lose stability like it was stumbling. Turning down the ZMA a bit and this cleaned up. As Palo mentioned, pulling the speakers further away from my gear racks seems to open up the bass - which got HUGE and more under control. So this stumbling could be a n assembly issue (maybe something is lose or I didn't seal a chamber well or something), port tuning issue (went by Bob's current suggestion of 4.5", but didn't glue the port extension in just in case we changed it), ZMA could be overdriving (we did have it cranked!), or maybe a damping issue? I don't know. It was minor, but I'd like to suss it out.

IMHO, this speakers are a great evolution on the MTM lineup Bob's been building for years, and I believe they will bump the 944 from being my "Reference Speaker".

More to follow - I still want to post some build pictures for those who are interested.  Palomino just stopped by and picked up the speakers to take to his listening room, and I'm back on the MG944. I love these 944s, but I think their days as my main speakers are numbered. They will make great "second system" speakers with my old Zen amp once my basement has been remodeled (which may be 10 years from now at the pace I'm going LOL).

LR,

Thanks for the Photo. My girlfriend won't think I'm quite so Weird after seeing this.  "SEE HONEY, EVERYBODY'S GOT THREE SETS OF SPEAKERS AND RACKS FULL OF GEAR"  LOL !!!

I took the el caminos back to my place.  If there was an issue with the bass it was because the amp was clipping.  Otherwise deep and tight as Steve says.

More later but Rachael can drive these speakers to satisfying volumes.

Sounds like Bob has another winner on his hands! Thanks for the impressions you two!

Oh, you want them back?

I didn't get much time to listen last night but I did put your zen in.

I was very pleasantly surprised.  There was again a very listenable volume produced.  I didn't find myself wanting more volume.  Granted I was listening to female vocal jazz and not rock ballads but it was an enjoyable session.

These speakers are pretty full at low volumes especially the bass. My only other comment is about how listenable/enjoyable these speakers are.  Although I didn't have much time, I felt satisfied with what I got.  There were some tracks in the mix that can be a bit etched in the treble on other speakers.   Not so on the el caminos.  It's an easy presentation that is not lacking in detail.  I enjoy bass lines and key into those a lot.  So much depth and detail there.  

I did play "doin it right" again to check the bass notes. No problem so long as I kept the volume at an appropriate level.  I don't think I have heard the bass so low, clear and full.

Ps I am running these quite a bit to run them in.  Just not as much time listening to them as I'd like.

Well, the El Caminos are seasoning nicely.  Probably about 100 hours on them between Eric and I.  I had coffee with them this morning and came away feeling that this was the best they have sounded.  I remember thinking, man, that is some melodic bass.

I have been thinking about my nickname for these speakers: El Camino.  I didn't mean to do Bob a disservice.   It just popped into my head because of the Silver & Black paint Bob used on the original pair reminded me of a silver/black El Camino SS.

Anyway, re-thinking the name, El Camino in English means "the path."  These things have a honking long horn on them which is a "path" of sorts.  And I say, it too is a Zen name fitting of the current product lineup.  The "path to audio enlightenment," if you will.

So don't think 70-80s muscle "cruck," think megahorn path to audio bliss.

Dave,

Best arguments I've read here in a long time. Bravo!

For kicks I put in an old SS class D amp into the system last night to hear how more juice sounded in the El Caminos.  

I got the "bass coming from the basement" effect I heard at Raven's multi-media lair with the ZMA.  These speakers like/can deal with power.  I don't know what they are rated at, but the more of it, the better and bigger they sound.

I did appreciate Rachael though quite a bit when I put her back in the system.  The difference in clarity was stunning.  Also, this concept Steve talks about in terms of usable power really comes through when you do this kind of comparison.  I would guess I had to turn the SS amp up over half volume to get the fullness of Rachael.

On the first night Eric and I listened to the speakers together, we sensed a slight hole in the upper bass on certain tracks.  We decided to let this play out as the speakers seasoned.  We also heard a little bloat on certain tracks beyond what could be attributed to the amp clipping.

With coming up on 150 hours of play time, I felt that both these observations were still there.  Again, you didn't hear this on any one song.  Some songs you could hear the depression and other bass heavy tracks you could hear the bloat.  It just depended on what range was emphasized in the song.

So last night I went in and measured our tube length and found out we were off from Bob's specifications.  We were too long due to our elbow used in the design being longer than Bob's.  As a result, Bob felt that we were tuned too low - thus the depression on the high end and a little bloating on the bottom end.  

So after consulting Eric and Bob, I took out the tubes and trimmed them.  It's hard to measure the exact length of the full tube inside the speaker(elbow/tube combo) but I believe I got the new length right.

The speakers are tuned slightly higher now and I like how it sounds.  I want Eric to give these a listen this weekend to confirm what I am hearing.  (Yes Eric, I am giving them back).

The bass was exquisite before.  Its slightly exquisite-er now.

It's pretty ingenious to have a tunable horn.  Tuning cabinets with ports is routine practice.  With the Monoliths and El Caminos, Bob and Steve have introduced the concept of a port tube tunable horn.  I am not sure I have seen this before.  Other methods, yes (length, dampening, size of compression chamber port hole, etc.) but not port length.

I do not have measuring gear, but I did want to get an idea of how low these speakers will play.  So I put on a test disc that has various frequencies of bass.  I think 11 tracks total.  The 25 hz track is clearly audible from my listening chair at mid volume.  20hz is as well, but down a fair bit down from what I heard in the 25hz track.  So with these listening tests in addition to the Palomino highly calibrated chest-o-meter, I can say these have useable bass well into the 20s.

If you are a horn aficionado and yearn for more deep bass or frustrated with sub integration, I would say to give these a try.  Also, Bob/Steve, I don't know if this works physics-wise, but I'd like to heard a full range single driver in a horn like this.

I was under the same impression, but Bob said longer tube = lower tuning.  We'll need to straighten that one out.  All I know for sure is that I am closer if not at Bob's length on the tube and it does sound better.  I am working from home today to squeeze in some listening before I must part with these.

I did talk to Bob about the treble.  I can't recall exactly what he said.  Something related to the required crossover point in the El Camino design.  I will try some switching back and forth today, but I can say the last switch I did, I sensed less or no tweeter etching on certain tracks on the El Caminos where I do get it on my other speakers.  I am also playing with toe in in hopes of increasing the sound stage width.  I am getting wall of sound, but not quite as wide as I am used to.

UPDATE!

So I got The Project pair of El Camino speakers back from Palomino last night, and gave them a quick listen before going off my Boss' Xmas party, and I've been low level listening to them this morning while enjoying my morning coffee. WOW these are good!

Palo ran these in a bit with a small transistor amp for the week he had them, running most all day, every day. He's also adjusted the port length after consulting with Bob; it turns out the street bends that we bought out here are manufactured differently and are longer, which threw the tune off. Now that we've got the extension cut down to match Bob's length, these guys have more upper Midbass POP instead of the stumble we heard before. It's amazing how trimming an inch of PVC could make such a big difference!

After the run in Palomino gave these, I'm also finding the tweeters to have improved considerably - they are still silky, but now seem *faster*, so the pluck of a guitar string on Keith Don't Go sound live and realistic without being etched or edgy. The buzz of a string on a fretless bass sounds metal on wood the way it should and not like some foreign, processed clank-buzz. The bass has also opened up a bit and sounds deep, full, musical and yet tight, but IMHO is overshadowed by how great these tweeters sound.

We gave a listen to these speakers on Palomino's Rachel before I took these home, first running through his Monoliths as Reference, then going to the El Camino - and I came away feeling like these speakers just need the guts of a slightly bigger amp then the Rachel. They sounded good, but didn't have the pop, depth, and speed that I get on the ZMA, even with the ZMA running at lower volume like I am this morning. IMHO, these speakers need wattage in the teens and above to really wake them up. Again, these probably aren't fully run in only having something like 100-150 hours on them, but my personal thought is that they need a little guts to drive them to a good place. Even Palo's clunky little $69 T-amp (or is it Tea Amp?) woke these up and turned them from sounding good to sounding great and HUGE.

I think this is my final verdict on these; They are fantastic, and my new reference. The MG944 will be kept around, and the Anthony Gallo Reference 3.1 speakers are being put up for sale. I'm going to either look into making these more "finished" so they look as good as they sound, or purchase a custom set from Zygi (budget permitting).

Meanwhile, I'm trying to talk Palomino into selling one of his Rachel amps and picking up a Torii III or newer.  :)

Man, photos would be great

Sorry, we've been remiss in providing the details.  I can add a little but Raven was the primary builder.

There were pictures earlier in the thread with the drivers and box build posted but I can no longer see them for some reason.  

Anyway, it's a 4 ohm MTM design with a horn enclosure not unlike the DNA or the Monoliths.  The cabinet is taller than the DNA and the horn is longer.  All drivers are SB Acoustics.  I think the woofers are 5" SB15MFC30 and the tweeter is the SB29RDCN-C000-4.

As far as I know, the overall sensitivity, frequency range, etc. has not been formally measured.  Bob uses calculators to do the original specifications, but these babies were likely tuned by ear to play well with Decware equipment.  Now that the design is settled, I believe its practical to measure.  My guess at sensitivity is 91db, but its just a guess based on comparison to other speakers that Raven or I own.

Raven intends to post the build pictures.  I think it has just been a matter of getting the time to do so.

A photo of the outside and the insides.

Thanks, good work! It seems as if the low-powered amps are forced to look elsewhere for good old high sensitivity speaker alternatives to the DM 945's. High drivers' royalty costs perhaps?

Fireblade,
The cost for the drivers in the DM's isn't very high. I bought everything to make my oversize clones of the DM's for less than $200.
What I didn't get was the build quality of the Decware products.
I did build some rocking little speakers though.

Palomino,

I meant having to go outside of Decware to really tap the potential of the low-powered amps (Super Zen, Mini Torii, Taboo, Rachael).

Decware has good speakers for amps in the 15+ watts range and higher budgets, not so for the low power/lower priced niche. The DM 945's are good, but limited in efficiency, relatively speaking. Trapeziums are even more taxed in that department. Both share limited resonance cabinets. Bookshelf and desktop speakers are not monitors. Monitor designs are a potential niche not being exploited at Decware.

Some of the high efficiency speaker companies make their own driver designs in-house. This alleviates them from having to pay royalties (therefore higher margins and more competitive prices), usually at very high efficiency as the drivers are purposely designed for this feature.

I just learned my DM 945's are actually 91 Db at 8 Ohms (which is the reference rating). I'm sure my Mini could do much better at 95-100 Db at 8 ohms if the speaker offers a benign impedance load curve and there are little crossover barriers, if any.

With Steve's and Bob's skills, the implementation of more sophisticated drivers in this mini-powered niche would create sinergies which would further boost sales of the wonderful low-powered/moderate budget amps.

Adding a preamp to boost weight and dynamics to the little amps sometimes creates more issues than solutions. That extra investment should go to pay for more efficient speakers, in my view.

Furthermore, the magic and awsome middle frequencies stemming from triode and pentode arrangements on offer at Decware become less feasible/accesible due to a lack of higher sensitivity speaker offerings in-house. Push-Pull designs compensate for this shortcoming, but there are evident, avoidable tradeoffs.

I may be wrong, of course, just my thoughts.