So, I was doing some research, and I stumbled into this thread that I find so frustrating.

How exactly do you debate the educated, skilled, measurement types when they bash SET amps as "bad" from the get-go?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/72006-mysteries-set...

That thread is from almost 3 years ago, so I'm guessing they're no longer debating.  

But seriously, who cares? I love my SE34.2+, and don't really care if the measurements prove it's a "good" amp. I also love my Modwright LS-100, and most other 6SN7 preamps I've heard, despite the "non-linear" characteristics of the 6SN7. And don't even mention my Zu Druids, plenty think they couldn't possibly sound like anything but crap!

It's like arguing religion, much rhetoric but few minds are changed. Be confident in what you hear, and pick equipment that gives you a pleasing sound. Then enjoy the music, and don't look back or apologize or feel the need to defend it.

At least until the upgrade bug hits.    ;D

David

I agree with you all, but it's threads and people like that which chase away real music lovers who otherwise might have found real audio nirvana.

Then again, the measurement guy doesn't have any room treatment, that's all I need to to see that he doesn't know what he's talking about...

Musicality is an elusive goal... Sometimes it's an amplifier's anomalies that make it musical... Very subjective territory for sure... But my ears don't lie... I am a pianist and long-time Hi Fi buff... And I know what instruments in the orchestra should sound like...

Also, SETs definitely add something to the recordings... Who can say exactly what... But it is pleasing to my ear... (m.)

It's important not to confuse objectivists with science or scientists. These things are not remotely the same.

From my experiences with objectivists in the 'sound science' forum of head-fi, most confuse their subjective personality preferences (for an orderly, black/white world?) with the 'objective' frameworks they know a little bit about.

Just because - on this platform - they assert a superior position doesn't mean it is.

There is one undeniable truth in this hobby:  One can always find someone who feels that any component is flawed!  The internet has only served to allow us access to find/read more of those folks.

Hate to admit it but I have been listening to music since five AM.  In my defense it is a gloomy, cold and blustery day outside.  My house is clean and all the laundry is done and put away.

Just poured a glass of Paso Robles Cabernet Sauvignon.  The little SET amp has seen many different artist's today.  If the recording was good the sound is excellent.

Is that not what we are looking for?

Now, Now children!  Let's play nice in the Decware Sandbox...hehe. There's room enough for everyone here...Believers and non-believers alike. Mark.

Believer/non-believer is a false equivalence when actual evidence is available supporting one side of the debate but not the other.

I don't believe in audiophile mythology, and if you disapprove, that's ok.  I'm enjoying the benefits.  

Yeah, some things.... I can't fully explain the things I hear. Maybe not everything we are doing has a defined way to quantify and measure at this time? How do you measure sound that's so "liquid" and "has weight", it's almost a fluid rushing from the speakers in a visceral sense? I've had that experience with a Decware amp and speakers, and I can barely describe it, let alone guess how to measure for it!

While I *know* I used to have above average hearing, I'm pretty sure that's going downhill pretty quickly at 42. But with the "training" I've put myself through (which is a fancy way of saying "listening and paying attention"), I've retained a lot of listening skills through my declining hearing. I can, and do still hear differences in speaker cables and interconnects and of course tubes. I've yet to hear any differences in power cords; *assuming* we aren't talking about one that's intentionally doing something to the current, or is substandard. IMHO - a cables goal is to do the least amount of damage to the signal going from point A to point B. Hell, I think that's the point of the slide-rule and scope audio guys - all equipment should send the signal unmolested from point A to point B - but I really don't think that's how bringing the music *alive* works...and that's what they aren't getting.

On the plus side, I got a great compliment form Steve at Decfest; he said something along the lines of "Eric hears things the way I hear things".



:)

Lon, your ears are very likely deceiving you, believe it or not.  Don't take that as a personal criticism, it's simply human nature.  I'm not sure why you would be so testy at your engineer friend on the jazz forum, or me, on such a settled topic as the mutability of human perception.  It's basic cognitive science.  You seem as in denial about that branch of science as you are on basic electrical theory on the wire thing.

 

Ski bum,

This forum is fantastic because people share their beliefs and musical interests.  Take from it or leave it alone no judgement either way.  Negativity is unnecessary. It's totally cool to believe in something else just don't challenge someone else's belief.  You hear what you hear...let it be.

JD

Coming up on 40 years that I have been in this Mayhem of listening to audio equipment and changing this amp or that speaker ,or those interconnects. NEVER happy with the results, driving miles and miles to hear this or that. getting false opinions from store owners , just so they could sell their equipment and make a buck. And again NEVER happy. Enter SET and single driver speakers. The same things that made those floor standing radios when I was a kid sound so good . Oh we are not here to talk about single driver speakers ,however they do go hand in hand. This is OLD technology , maybe the oldest technology. Shame on them for bashing technology that started it all. 2 watts and 95 DB drivers , Ill take that all day. Shame!!! Happy New Year  

Using Lon's logic, the world must be flat.  It sure doesn't look spherical, at least not from where I'm standing, so therefore science is wrong and the world is flat.  I'm going with what my eyes tell me, as I have super-human vision, and nobody will convince me otherwise!

SMH




     

Ski bum,

    I'm by no means an authority on any thing and I plan on keeping it that way. Life is to short to argue and analyze things to death. I do like to hear others observations and can also learn something from them on occasions. Nothing is worth getting in a Pi%@# match over. I have personally heard differences in speaker wire and I don't mean $1,000 dollar wire more like Radio Shacks special wire. From different strand thicknesses to different gauge sizes. Mainly in the treble and bass and some resolution of the sound so I do believe there are audible differences in certain wire. I have no experience with super high end products do to not being worth it to me. The differences to me do not necessarily justify the cost but you shouldn't bash someone for having the ability to search and seek the available products that are out there and tell what they have learned. I'm grateful for those that do it keeps me from the need to purchase some of those things that I really can't afford personally but through them I do get to experience what they are experiencing and that is a great thing. Please I appreciate your position on what you believe but also appreciate others for what they believe.

    Its all about enjoying music or enjoying the music along with the equipment as a hobby or whatever doesn't matter. Its about the expansion of thought that a lot of us have on this sight try not to be to narrow is my feelings! As long as were here to enjoy things life is good. My father is in the hospital in bad shape that would be the other! That's the bad half of a good life.
    Hey all have a good day and keep on spinning them!

Have a Happy New Year!

Cheers,

Lon,

    Thanks for your kind thoughts. It seems that we are very closely seeing the the other part of life and it is tough seeing your loved ones going through it. Our time is also coming. Good luck with your father!
My fathers time is close and he has some tough decisions to make over the next couple of days. He will be 80 tomorrow.


You also Have a Happy New Year!

Ditto from me to Lon & Digger. I have aging parent whom live with me the first week of May through the first week of October. They spend the Winter in South Texas where my aunt & uncle help.

Everyone have a Happy New Year! Enjoy some music. I am cleaning some Vinyl later after I run some errands. My girl friend and I will be spinning them tonight (home/body NYEve)!   Cheers, Stone of Tone

I could not agree more Digger. Larry Archibald....whom owned Stereophile out of Santa Fe NM...was/is quite the Wine Connoisseur ...and wrote extensively about what you just said 21 & 28 years ago.
..........the Cable Wars too....AND if this Solid State Amp is right this Tube Amp must be Wrong...cover issue....Stereophile (years ago).  

So, the Ski Bums of the world...I addressed a quarter Century ago. I have 28 years experience...some people have one years experience 28 times.  -S

I have done ABX tests in the past, and identified wire correctly. I find a lot of these things hurled by objectivists to be protectionist twaddle. So tired of the superior attitude of some of them and I have begun to think they're feeding their prejudices and justifying their unwillingness to spend money.* So I bristle now when I end up in their sights.

*Just my take from years of this same stuff spewed out over and over that does not match my own individual experience. It just seems so silly.

Anyone is welcome to their opinion, and no one has to agree with them. That's how I operate.

No more coffee for me today! Unless its Decaf.

SkiBum

     I think for some it is there hobby of choice so they will spend on equipment to make it the best it can be. With that being said we all should be able to understand it. If I didn't have the other hobby interests that I have I may be a whole lot more willing to spend the money on equipment a bit more freely. My summer hobby's tend to suck up a bit more money than my music interests. I will say there will probably be a day when I give them up and will put additional money into my music equipment and it wouldn't bother me a bit. You have to have some type of a release in life and a reason to get out of bed and go to work besides just eating. At least that is my feelings getting thru another day. All depends on your needs and priorities in life and timing is everything.

ski bum wrote on 12/31/13 at 18:00:32:


Or perhaps you'r hearing is different. Or perhaps your desire for the myths to be untrue is so strong that it has influenced what you perceive.

I've spent far far more on music than equipment, so I'm not a hardware fetishist. I want to get closer to the music. Power, isolation and wire experimentation have shown me that I can as all these are not uniform. One doesn't have to spend megabucks, but wire is different one from the other, and I've not been unconvinced of that.

We can each own our opinions and listening abilities and music collections and enjoy the hobby. Happy new year.

Quote:


But see, that's exactly the point...to these Decware folks, the proof is in the playback.  :D

Again, I'm super skeptical - everything in my system has to have proven itself in A/B testing in my system.

I have a good friend who's been loosely on this journey with me since I got my first Zen Amp 15 years ago. I *know* he hears and enjoys music differently than me (for some reason he loves sitting really, really near field between the speakers - almost like he's trying to replicate headphone sound  :-?). But I'll give him a hand-full of cables, my hand made ones that I'm very proud of, my Decware Silver Reference, Some "high end" Monster Cable, and whatever else I can find. I've already listened to this stuff and have my own notes on my own system, I simply hand him a box of cables and ask him to report back to me. And guess what, he comes back with almost exactly the same notes that I have, and picks the same two cables as his favorites as I did - and not by looks either, because I left my favorite cable a bit "unfinished" vs some of my other hand made cables.

So yes, when the proof is in the playback, and my friend comes back with the same notes as me, that says something.

I also know (or at least have a strong suspicion, judging from our dialog) that if I sent these same cables to Lon, except for one that I know is complete crap, Lon would probably pick a different cable as his favorite and least favorite because his listening preference is different than mine...but I bet his notes would be pretty close to mine because the differences are there.

So, back to the Decware thing...yes, Steve started this out to be a the everyman's affordable amp gear, but when you get to a certain point, you have no choice but to spend money to get really nice...whatever. There are some very talented people out there who really listen, and have figured out what works and what's crap and developed real products that, unfortunately, cost a bit to produce and cost a bit to keep them in business.

I will gladly A/B test lamp cord, vs Decware Styx, vs whatever. Granted the closer you get to "doesn't damage the signal at all" the more the cables will start to sound alike - but there is no way lamp cord is going to sound better than my Styx. I know, because I've already gone though the tests myself. Lampcord vs Monster, vs "high end monster" vs CAT5 vs 10 gauge Romex vs....I don't know, I've lost count. You can't tell me there isn't a difference.

Ok, I'm rambling again, too much coffee for me as well, and I have a 3 hours drive home.

Talk to you all later!

Hi Lon, I was just wondering if you have experimented with room correction devices such as diffusors, etc.? (I know you use isolation devices like Herbie's, but what about the big picture as in the actual room?)

That makes sense Lon.  I rent too and don't have the luxury of a dedicated listening area ... and truth be told that's not the way I like to enjoy my music or movies anyways.  I like to listen (or watch) while I'm cooking and or bonding with my son, etc.  My main system is in a great room though (with no fourth wall so to speak as it's open to the kitchen).  But still I know I should be doing a few things that would/could improve the sound.