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Speakers with good bass for $4-6K (Read 16691 times)
dalerf
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Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
08/27/13 at 14:45:36
 
What a minefield, I know different recordings sound different, but overall I wan't a speaker system with good bass. Most of the reviews I've read the majority lack bass without having to use a sub-woofer which I'm not prepared to do! So far narrowed down to VAF speakers (Australian), thought the Elacs might be good, or the Adagio Zen, looked on the net at the Zu's. A lot of speakers are sill under 90db, which I won't consider. A friend is running 35watt per channel on Wharfdales and can't get any good volume. I can get Klipsch RF7 - II for a very good price, you'd have to be dense to pay rrp for speakers, so often they all come on sale at very good discounts. I've never heard horn speaker, but I'm impressed with two 10" woofers on the Klipsch. I've read you will never get good bass from 6-7" inch speakers. I'm currently using Paradigm Monitor 9 speakers, good highs and mids, lack bass Sad
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will
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #1 - 08/27/13 at 16:03:13
 
It occurs to me that one factor could be that 35 watts output may or may not be the same as 25 watts output with a Torii MkIV, especially since Steve thinks it is an improvement over the MkIII. "If the first watt sucks," "usable power," etc.

Another may be just the feeling from well designed and well made, more efficient speakers. Seems many folks making efficient speakers are in a sort of "purist/real sound" school, using efficiency to utilize smaller/simpler amps that are nimbler and create more of a "player in the room vibe," (often with tubes)....Then add the speakers designed for these amps... often nimbler and  more expressive utilizing speed, detail, great spacial info and image, and hopefully bass.

I think the Torii MkIII has powerful bass. And with it, in my room, both the Decware MG 944s (94dB) and HR-1s (92.5 dB) have to me very believable bass, both with only 6 inch drivers. And there are great reports out there on Zus and others...With these and other speakers, there is always the option of a good Mid-bass module  like this http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/mbm-12mk2.html (good reports from some Decware users) or subs if desired. I don't feel the need in my system though.

I think one thing that really excites me about speakers made for low/lower power is the speed and imaging, and it seems this does not necessarily have to sacrifice bass.
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dalerf
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #2 - 08/27/13 at 16:13:03
 
I have drooled over the HR-1's, only problem with them is postage costs to Australia, that is why I've been looking at what is available to me locally, which limits choices. Also none of the Hifi shops let you take them home to see what they sound like in home environment, which is totally different to how the speakers sound in the store. So hard........
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will
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #3 - 08/27/13 at 16:36:00
 
I feel your pain! To me also, it is really important at this level of potential, to try stuff in my room. But on the other hand, after research, I have not sent much back...maybe lucky...trusted sources. I have also done some simple modding to make me more happy with both my speakers...always an option if something is just not as good as it could be to your taste. This concept of adjustment is what made me suggest the HSU mid-bass module if it (or something similar) turned out to be necessary to fill out your room if some really nimble, smaller speakers didn't quite cut it. I understand though...in my room, there is little space for a bass unit and I prefer my speakers taking care of it.
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Rivieraranch
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #4 - 08/28/13 at 00:00:14
 
The trouble with your KIlipsch alternative is that horn that will begin shouting at you as you turn the volume up enough to feel that bass.
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beowulf
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #5 - 08/28/13 at 06:54:26
 
Have you heard of Omega Loudspeakers?  Another US made designer that pairs nicely with Decware.  They are a single driver design and I am really digging the sound of mine and find I have no need for a sub.  They are very reasonably priced as well.

Here is a review of the Super 6 Alnico on John Darko's site.  The Omega's were Darko's first review to ever receive a Dar-KO award.  The Super 6 is Omega is top of the line speaker in his line up, but I have a custom pair that use the Super 3s cabinets with his new Model 7F drivers and I like the combo a lot, they are super efficient 95 dB - no crossover - single driver speakers that are driven by a Decware Taboo MKII @ 6 watts and they can get really loud before I even hit halfway on the volume knob.
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Rivieraranch
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #6 - 08/28/13 at 12:11:38
 
Why not try DECWARE speakers? The MG944 and HR1's put put tremendous bass.

Steve and Zygi are like the Rogers and Hammerstein, the Elton John and Bernie Taupin, the Leopold & Loeb of speaker design.
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Lin
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #7 - 08/28/13 at 12:34:24
 
RR "Why not try DECWARE speakers?"

dalerf  in 2nd post "I have drooled over the HR-1's, only problem with them is postage costs to Australia, that is why I've been looking at what is available to me locally, which limits choices."


Omega has an Australian dealer and are also very good speakers.
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dalerf
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #8 - 08/28/13 at 13:59:11
 
The Omega's look interesting, auditioned 3 speakers today, Focal 836v, Jamos, and Klipsch F30 (as they don't stock Reference series). Focals had good highs and mids, lack bass, Jamos the same, compared to the F30's no contest, much more detail, I didn't find the horns hard on my ears, good tight bass, and these cost lots less than the other two brands, so if the F30's sound like that, what would the RF7's be like, they must be better!! So at the moment the Klipsch impress me, good feel in the music, volume knob only on 2 setting, wow.
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beowulf
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #9 - 08/28/13 at 18:46:02
 
Quote:
Lin said,
Omega has an Australian dealer and are also very good speakers.


Good point Lin!  The actual intent of my post was to mention they had an Austrailan dealer, but left that important part out ... senior moment Grin
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beowulf
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #10 - 08/28/13 at 19:05:45
 
Quote:
Rivieraranch said,
The trouble with your KIlipsch alternative is that horn that will begin shouting at you as you turn the volume up enough to feel that bass.


I agree, when I was shopping for speakers I wanted to originally get something from the Klipsch Heritage line (specifically the Heresy), because I liked the retro look of them, but had the same problem with the shouting ... I wanted to love them, but just couldn't fit the sound of them to my room so moved on to other alternatives.

My listening position is Nearfield more than anything else and that also motivated me to find speakers that best fit my needs which brought me to the Omega single driver line, there are other single driver speaker designers out there, but the OP mentioned he lived down under, so I thought of Omega right away, not to mention I find the quality of his products to be top notch.
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maddog07
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #11 - 08/28/13 at 19:22:21
 
I'm going to get scoffed at here...but the proof is in the listening.  I have some very good sounding speakers in my stable right now, 5 pair, each being a radically different "design".  They range from conventional sealed box, dynamic drivers to electrostats, to full-range, high-efficiency, single-driver DIY's, to open baffles and even a vintage horn-loaded Klipsch, i.e. Chorus II's.  
The subject of "bass" is very subjective.  What most people are actually talking about is "weight" thru the mid-bass region and not bass extension into the "sub" bass range.

Nobody would believe this (including myself), until they heard it - but my single, full-range, high-efficiency drivers(12" Audio Nirvana Super Cast Frame Alnico's ) in a 5.6 cu/ft ported box have bass "weight" like no other speaker I've ever owned or heard.  It really has to be heard to be believed.  HOWEVER... this is only true when they are driven by my Torii MK.III.  There is something going on here in terms of synergy between these drivers, no crossover parts at all and the Torii that defies logic, experience and physics.  This combo has dumbfounded everybody who's heard it so far.  I do have a "frame of reference here" as I have twin Velodyne Optimum 12 subs, that I used with my ML Vista's(which measure essentially flat to 40hz in my room without a sub).  But this setup does not have the "weight" of sound of my DIY's.  Its hard to verbalize, but once you hear it, you know it immediately.  No the DIY's do not do "sub bass" - but they do everything else and they do it about as good as it gets in my experience.  Near electrostatic transient speed, dynamics and detail with a fluid realism no other system I've ever owned possessed.  I want to again stress, this is only with the Torii driving them.  Hook up a solid-state amp, even very good, highly respected ones, think Levinson.. and they are dry, forward, etched, lack weight and bass.  Hook up the Torii... in a double-blind you would swear you were listening to totally different speakers - radically different.

I've heard the Decware HR-1's at Decware... very nice speakers.  But I would have to hear them in "my room" before I laid down that kind of long green..  but they might very well be what you're looking for.

If you are into DIY'ing just a bit, and don't want to spend piles of $$$ unnecessarily - at least not at first.  See if you can find a vintage pair of Klipsh Forte II's or Chorus II's in good shape.  If you're willing and able to spend a few $$ and some of your time to redo the xovers in these, replace the tweeter and midrange compression driver diaphraghms with the Crites and a little tweaking - driven by a Torii - they will stun you.  Do not get Chorus' unless you have a huge room for them, otherwise the bass will overpower the room and the Chorus' will sound out of balance, heavy and too dark - try the Forte instead.  Some of the newer Klipsch models may work well also - but the ones I've heard, are not as good as the old ones - to my ears.

If you have some intermediate wood working skills and the equipment (or a friend who does), get some Audio Nirvana drivers and put them in a well braced reflex box of 5.6 cu/ft. or larger - strap on a Decware Torii - stand back and prepare to be amazed!!!  Take the $$$ you saved and buy music or setup a nice music-server front end... then just sit back and enjoy!!!
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Lon
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #12 - 08/28/13 at 19:42:58
 
maddog07 wrote on 08/28/13 at 19:22:21:

The subject of "bass" is very subjective.  What most people are actually talking about is "weight" thru the mid-bass region and not bass extension into the "sub" bass range.



No scoffing from me. I learned this through tuning the bass drums on my drum kits and the interaction between different bass guitars and different amplifiers, and the sound of my contrabass violin. That weight is what people want and it doesn't come from the lowest bass range. Good observation.

Room is so much of the equation. In my previous room, the HR-1s had fabulous bass but the weight wasn't there completely. It was realistic and accurate actually, but most don't want "neutral" ---they want something with heft and so do I. In a large part that is why many i think like vintage tube gear. But in my new room I have the weight just by interaction with the room and it's nicely satisfying. The downside is I'm forced to listen near-field as there just isn't enough room not to. I'm getting used to it (again) but it's a chore when you've become accustomed to a large room and more space between you and the speakers.
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will
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #13 - 08/28/13 at 20:35:27
 
Informative post maddog! Thanks. Can you put up pictures of your DYIs?

I agree, a big part of the sense of good bass tends to come higher than we might think. Relative to Lon's thoughts on room, my room has a mode peak at about 45Hz, beginning at 32 and ending around 55. This is all muddle and fatigue to me, so I EQ it down to good limits.

I have not tried it, as I find the Torii MkIII/HR-1 bass very satisfying (once cleaned up), but this is why the HSU mid-bass module intrigues me. I find this interesting in the context of your observations. The unit specs at 50-250Hz. Tight and bold performance here, it would seem would give a great sense of weight and bass.
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maddog07
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #14 - 08/28/13 at 21:43:24
 
I think it was Dick Olsher... that wrote an article and routinely talks about bass "weight".  And of course it is absolutely impacted to great extent by room interaction... but once you "hear it".. it's hard to live without it - it just adds so much to the realism of playback.

My current room is "huge"... practically an anechoic chamber.  In fact, it's too dead in some regards.  No detectable, by ear, slap echo at all.

I heard the HSU mid-bass modules at RMAF in HSU's room there.  Well... an empty, standard size hotel room - not ideal for nearly anything without lots of treatment.  I have never had a pair of them in my listening room, but suspect they might actually be what most people are yearning for - they just don't know it - so they add subs and then try to run them at higher xover points than they were designed for, which isn't ideal in most cases.

Lon... completely understand your point of reference.  I have a 7-piece drum kit in another part of the man-cave... I still haven't managed a system that can fool me into thinking I'm listening to the real thing... but I'm getting closer.... no replacement for "displacement" you know!

I will try to take some pics and post of my Audio Nirvana DIY's... they are not quite where I want them to be cosmetically - yet.  Still a bit of a work-in-progress there.  This was my very first attempt at "finish" woodworking skills... but they're not horrid either.  Zygi would laugh at me and make me feel bad!  But functionally and sonically, after a couple months of listening to them now, I think they are "there".  However, I want to make it clear that my sonic conclusion here, is only applicable when they are driven by my Torii MkIII.  There may be other amps that have this synergy and magic with the crossoverless, high-efficiency, full range types... but I haven't found it or heard it yet.  And that includes the Decware SE34i I had before the Torii.  The SE34 is beautiful sounding, but the Torii is logic defying, revolutionary and life altering with these drivers.
I don't have the "added ambiance" of an HR-1, or an ERR or an open baffle type with these.  But I do think that sonic trait is indeed "additive" - but I find I "like it" also - at least part of the time.  Which led me to my 2nd DIY speaker project(custom Hawthorne Audio Trios-OB's), which won't be completed until after Zenfest.  Then, maybe, just maybe, I will be "there" and satisfied for awhile.  Probably only a little while, but hopefully the audiophile nervosa will be put in check for at least a few months.  Oh.. wait a minute, I forgot about that Torii MK.IV upgrade thing looming just around the corner... OK... maybe after that..!!!   Wink
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beowulf
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #15 - 08/28/13 at 23:42:09
 
Quote:
maddog07 said,
Nobody would believe this (including myself), until they heard it - but my single, full-range, high-efficiency drivers(12" Audio Nirvana Super Cast Frame Alnico's ) in a 5.6 cu/ft ported box have bass "weight" like no other speaker I've ever owned or heard.  It really has to be heard to be believed.  HOWEVER... this is only true when they are driven by my Torii MK.III.


I'm thinking this for the single driver Omega's as well for some reason.  I have a Rega Brio-R @ 50 watts and also the Taboo MK II @ 6 watts ... with the Taboo the bass is weightier (is that a word) than the Brio-R.  I still think the Brio-R is a great little integrated (with that PRAT thing Lon always talks about Smiley) and will use it once in a while, but it's out-classed by the Taboo.
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JohnWatson
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #16 - 08/30/13 at 14:46:41
 
I just tried Klipschorns with a small SS amp and a Decware CSP pre and they are the best speakers by far, I have owned. They have great bass, detail and soundstage and I'm playing them in a 14' by 16' room..just keep the volume down and try not to break the windows. My first thought was "so this is what bass sounds like". They have to be in a corner of course, but man...these are the last speakers I will ever own, can't wait to get an SET or SEP on them and see what the changes are.
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dalerf
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #17 - 08/30/13 at 16:14:45
 
Bitten the bullet, ordered the Klipsch RF7-II, should arrive in a week, I'd better be happy because these will be my speakers for a long time (haven't told wife yet) got good price I can't go past, now the wait for the Torii IV to be built and arrive. My only thought now is I was just going to use Tori IV and no preamp, what are people thoughts on using CSP2 or new CSP3 preamp, does the Torii need it?
Having fun watching the peanuts at work trying to get decent sound out of their Chinese valve amps. One just got a 70watt (35 per channel) inefficient amp that won't run his Wharfdale speakers, no volume above normal level, not enough gain, so he has had to get a preamp Smiley
Of course it has already blown a KT88, so it has cost him another set (4) valves. IT person at work has had to adjust something (I'm not tech savy) because it was running hot hot hot and he would have been buying valves every 12 months Sad The tech said the Chinese amps cut corners to save costs, take out bits and pieces were other amps use two, they use only one to save $1.60 here and there, so in the end they cost more just trying to get good sound when they could have had a Decware!!!!
Considering I have never heard a Decware Torii I'm confident it will be a much better amp even at 50watts, especially the IV with more gain.
Can't wait to compare.
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Lon
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #18 - 08/30/13 at 17:33:17
 
I go through a quartet of output tubes a year on my Toriis but I use them a LOT as I'm retired and they are the nerve center of my audio and video listening and watching.

As I said in a PM to you, the main reason I am using preamps with my Toriis is that I have an audio-visual system and need more than the two inputs! That said I do prefer the sound with the CSP2+ preamps I have but . . . in part I'm just so used to that sound, and it's component synergy based. The ZP3 doesn't need it. My digital sources seem to benefit from it most. So. . . you're fine without one if you only have two sources.
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maddog07
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Re: Speakers with good bass for $4-6K
Reply #19 - 08/30/13 at 17:53:02
 
I can't speak exactly to the use of the CSP2+ or CSP3 with the Torii, as I do not have a CSP.  At last years Zenfest, we heard the Torii with and without a preamp.  I think it will be something you'll have to try in your system and hear for yourself in order to be able to determine your preference.

I have used my Torii MK.III both ways - no preamp, driven directly by my Wyred4Sound DAC-2, which has volume, balance, mute, phase, input select, etc. all available via remote.  This was a synergistic combo for sure.  But... I have some analog sources also, so some kind of a preamp is a must for me.  I have an over-achieving, not well known SS preamp I have owned for several years that I have been quite content with in the other systems I've had.  I put this preamp in front of the Torii, and "discovered" just a smidge of "grunge" that had never been revealed to me before with other amps I used it with.  So be prepared for the "transparency" of the Torii <-- fluid resolution is the best verbiage I can come up with to describe the Torii.

So... this put me on another quest for a new preamp.  Listening to music, for me, is practically a "therapy".  It's how I unwind from the insanity that is large corporate America these days.  So when I sit down to listen to music, its to relax.  I don't want to be jumping up every cut to adjust volume - remote control "Is a Must".  If Steve would make a remote controlled CSP, I'd be "on it" like white on rice.  So.. finding a remote controlled preamp, that doesn't muck up anything can be a bit of a chore.  And it would be "icing" if said preamp, also brought some additional sonic desirables to the table.  Steve will tell you that putting a CSP (or any good preamp) in front of the Torii can be "a good thing".  It just depends on several factors.  But a preamp can sometimes add "weight", flesh-on-the-bones, dynamics, bloom, etc.  And a good one, won't sacrifice any of the "rez" of your amp or muck anything up.

Long story short, I think I found a preamp that meets all the criteria outlined above that are important to me.  I've only had it a few weeks and have been doing some dialing-in of its sound with some tube rolling, but it's showing great promise already.  It definitely doesn't have any grunge, meets all my functional requirements, and even brings some additional goodness to my sonic landscape.  This last point is still a moving target at this point with the auditioning of different tubes.  Bad news is; this preamp costs more than my Torii !!!!
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