What is the endgame here? As I always say there is no such thing as perfection.
I'm betting that your day to day mood effects your perception of sound quality more than any piece of hardware or software.
Stop chasing that last 2% and learn how to enjoy what a wonderful system that you already have. Chill out and enjoy.
Beyond that, I'd try a different DAC.

Always get the best source you can afford. The Mini Torii deserves better. IMHO

Lon, thanks for your input.

I know you're a firm believer of power conditioning at the highest levels, and with reason. I just look at it from a financial perspective. There's too much of a penalty to get there.  

When I hear my system in the wee hours, once in a while, I don't notice difference from daytime listening. At least, not related to power contamination, but rather due to a less silent context.

Fine power conditioning will get there, someday, as I agree it is an important complement. I just think I can get more bang for my buck in other areas first.

And I think you'd find that you'll enjoy your current set up more and any future editions of your system, and will be able to more clearly map your next steps. I honestly think a component such as the PS Audio Dectet would be a good place to start, as well as getting your system free of vibration. Their is potentially more bang for the buck there than with a source upgrade. Just speaking from my own experience. . . . These can lower your noise floor revealing clearer tonality and more detail and dynamics.

Makes the most sense to me at your present point. Do as you would, but I think THIS is the bang for buck move.

David, I resisted the idea of power conditioning and power cords etc. for a long time. But when I heard it for my myself in another's system, and then in mine, I couldn't deny my own experience. Now maybe it's easier for me to believe because all my life I've found things that not everyone agreed about to be true. Who knows, I'm not a big fan of "consensus thinking" because I just don't think all the time as others do.

Contrary to what you "believe," I use the PS Audio Duets which were a predecessor to the Dectet and I used the Tripplite isolation transformers both with and without the transformers the Duets did more to clean the sound and not introduce noise. Tonality and detail were better than with the transformers The Dectet is reported to be even better sonically, an improved product. I'm just reporting what I have heard myself, over lengthy periods, in my own home; these provide more than just protection. I still use Duets in my second system and for its purposes feel that no further conditioning is necessary.

A "moot point?" I don't agree, and there's as much dissension in the audio community about isolation control than there is power matters.

When you reach the level of transparency you are likely at now it makes sense to nail down power and vibration concerns which will allow you to better enjoy what you have, and will allow you to get the best out of future improvements in gear.

Anyway, I invite anyone else to weigh in here, but in your shoes that's where I went and it was a successful venture.

Lon, I understand and I take your experience seriously. I just read the PS Audio's Dectet description and the features relate basically to 'protection,' not noise reduction or suppression.

My experience with the Tripp Lite Isolation Transformer has been excellent. No noises, no vibrations or humming coming from it, at least perceptible. I basically use it only as circuit isolation and surge protection, not for conditioning, and it works just fine.

I bet a small minority of so called audiophiles (with a normal distribution spanning very diverse financial capabilities), are normally investing this kind of money in power regeneration plants, which is the only concept I really buy from the power conditioning market, but can't afford it.

Even Steve suggests an isolation transformer as common sense, without ruling out power regeneration devices, if one can afford them.

Regarding the Duetts/Dectet, I take your suggestion at heart, Lon, believe me, I just don't agree. Until I try one of those at home, I'll not be convinced. I wish I could try things and send them back, but for me that's not an option, unfortunately.

Anyways, this has been a repetitive, long discussion already and I thank you for your very good intentions. You may receive my recognition and excuses some time in the future if I'm proven wrong.  

FB, you`re planning the big one.
One day you`ll have all 3, just which order to go about it.
I`m not sure it matters as you will improve the music on
each step. Maybe top the CSP2+ & new source off with
a power conditioner to go ahhhh now I see.
You could leave vibration control after these as fine tuning.

Riding the gain.
I understand the concept; open the p/amp up and use the
pre to control volume.
I come at it a different way. I see the power amp as a bass
reservoir....any deep powerful bass ( perhaps quiet but shifting
air in the feel-more-than-hear range) can be handled better or
with more ease by having power in reserve.
It`s probably 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other.

Hi Fireblade

I own the same DAC as you but I feed it into a Tori MkIII and then into some Decware DNA horns.

Similar to you I believe the DAC was extremely good value for money when I bought it but that was before I got my Decware and now it is definitely the weak link and needs upgrading.  I'm looking for a bigger sound stage and more balls.  I also want improved connectivity options from my home network.

So... I've just pulled the trigger on the PS Audio Mk II with bridge.  Given the cost, I am not expecting to upgrade my DAC again.   Delivery will probably take a few weeks (I live a long way from the US) but you said you're not in a hurry so I can compare it to the MS II+ when it arrives and let you know what an extreme upgrade to that DAC does...

Cheers
Dave

Congrats on the Mk II! I think you'll be very happy.

Thanks, Pale Rider.

Although it has been difficult to accept, Lon's conviction as well as other testimonials in the media have started to make me reconsider.

The problem is there is a dichotomy between gadgets that are essentially a fancy strip distributor and real power processing devices. The latter are much more expensive (I would even dare to say prohibitively overpriced), and this becomes a barrier for many newcomers to the power cleansing mentality.

There are limited ways to check or review these items, and at least technically, the cheaper ones do not seem to be making much inside those small boxes.

I'd love to find a middle of the road version with enough engineering behind it to at least make me believe I'm buying value added, even if it is not the best.

It's either spending a small fortune on a PS Audio regeneration type device, or spending less money for something I'm not convinced is going to do much. I don't seem to find a middle of the road compromise yet.

For example, the Dectet from PS, which seems affordable, is not too convincing when one reads their description. There are few reviews on these lesser devices also. Trying some of them first would be nice, but I cannot do that where I live.

But, the bug is in my mind already, and along with vibration control, I will address these intangible issues eventually.

Not sure if you listen to CD's and SACD's (agree Lon classical in SACD format is something special) you may want to look at the OPPO line, decent DAC and great CD, SACD playback, you can stream Pandora and use for great 2 channel stereo when watching DVD's.  If you are looking at the power plants check out upscaleaudio.com they have what seems like a great deal going (no affiliation).  Noted that I don't listen to any music via computer etc. so my DAC knowledge is rather limited.

JD

Thanks for your input, JD.

I do stream exclusively through my laptop, and I've ripped all my collection of CD's, so there's no turning back given the advantages involved. IMO, a good computer setup, coupled with a class 'A' DAC is potentially a better source in the long run (unless you invest mega bucks in a top of the line Transport/DAC combo.)

I will check your tip on Upscale Audio for possible opportunities, thanks!

Thanks for the tip, Pale Rider.  I'll sure look into those.

JD, thanks for your input.

I've read great things about the new generation Oppo BDP-105 (improving tangibly over a well reviewed Oppo BDP-95). But, as I said earlier, I'm not into CD/DVD/DVDA/BlueRay players, nor do I care much for multi-featured designs.

I know I could stream from the built-in USB/DACs in the Oppo and all, but I would be paying for stuff I will never use. In my case, I prefer to invest exclusively in specialized stereo sound quality, and not in other useful, but non appealing features for me.

For that kind of money, given my needs, I would be better off with a Concero DAC and a ZStage, or a good enough power conditioner, and will optimize my stereo sound investment.

It's just me, so many thanks for an otherwise very good suggestion.

HPDJ,

Thanks for the information. The link is too old to include anything about the MiniBuss, just UberBuss and some other discontinued models, so I guess I can always contact them directly.

Like you, I'm trying to fine tune my system systematically, tackling each potential bottleneck in a progressive pathway over time, to eventually reach a comfortable (and affordable) best sounding state.

I agree with your take on clean power, I just want to find the most cost-effective alternative that would accomplish the job.

It is odd that you could not detect improvements with Herbie's vibration control, more so than with the upgraded power cord, as the latter may not work well in your particular setting.  

Vibration control (I still haven't tried any yet, but I will) is supposed to help tangibly with sound quality, given the physics principles' concept it is based on. I suspect the improvement here depends on your particular setting.

Congrats on the new DAC. I assume you're getting the Cantata music server, as I have not found any single DAC on offer in their site. These are quite expensive, but very good.

Absolutely! I have Iso-Cups under my Torii and I've tried a number of other pieces there, the Iso-Cups trump them all. (Maple is amazing too, I have the Torii on a maple platform on my maple Samson rack).

My particular setting is my desktop and it is a rumbling little place because of the Trapeziums (which are great). There are two levels and the speakers are on the bottom, source/amp on top level. My equipment is still very prone to any adverse effects of vibrations. These effects are not any I can necessarily detect right now, but I was hoping I would notice something different (more solid musical images, deeper bass etc) when I implemented my Herbies Audio Tenderfeet and the Iso-cups. Nothing thus far...This is why I suspect the bottleneck is power related and thus, I'm looking to address that.

And yes, I have the Cantata Music Center and am finally entering the digital music realm woohoo! I found a great deal on one and couldn't pass it up. I do feel that this particular unit is over kill for a desktop system (in my eyes anyway), but I have been really looking to get components that I see as a little over kill. Ones that will be able to "bring it" when I get a bigger space and probably some loud speakers. Ones I may be able to physically transfer from desktop to a bigger room where I can be more enveloped in the sounds that they create. I don't see me being able to have 2 systems anytime soon, otherwise I would look at this all a bit differently.

I also wanted something that would future-proof me in some ways and Resolution Audio has mentioned their commitment to offering updates to the Cantata for the next 10 years! I really don't want to be left in the dust when/if some other way of helping me enjoy my music comes along. The unit already has more flexibility than I care to use at the moment, but I like being overwhelmed by what something can do, and I love to have options (as long as certain aspects don't suffer because of the added options). Oh and I still get to spin my CD's with this unit which makes me very happy

HPDJ,

I'm no expert in vibration control (never have used it), but I have first-hand experience with vibrations-related sound problems stemming from my speakers sharing the same furniture table as my amp and source.

The table is solid, made out of heavy Malaysian wood (not sure which one), with wide planted feet, so it is very sturdy. Nevertheless, the loudspeakers' vibrations were a real sound killer.

Once I placed my speakers in monitor stands (I have DM945's) and into the listening room, the difference was night and day, as the source (laptop + DAC) and amp remained isolated on the table.

I therefore suspect you may be suffering from speaker vibrations creeping into your other components, if these share the basic same structure (desktop), so that Herbie's aids cannot do much, since the foundation into which the vibrations are supposed to be dissipated, is the source of that same vibration.

I may be wrong, but try to isolate the Trapeziums from the rest, temporarily, and check for sound changes (hopefully improvements.) I assume the anti-vibration devices will then be able to show their worth, as their task would be quite simple in this new context.

I learned the 'golden rule' the hard way (and I'm glad I did): Never have speakers sharing the same structure with other components.  Even if the Trapeziums are small, they're going to vibrate more than anything else in your entire setup.

Well, let's see if that test confirms it.  Thanks!

Platforms could help, I love having them even on dedicated equipment racks, I love wood anyway. My two cents: plan on an equipment rack, allowing you to keep the "desktop speaker" nature of the Traps in place.

That said. . . have you tried any of the Grungebuster Dots? Not very thick, but do deal with vibrations. . . .

HPDJ,

I agree with Lon. The being "desktop" the Traps are designed for the desktop presumably. And I know ZYGI takes his design seriously, so I would seriously check with him before going for stands on a desk. The concept that the speakers be isolated first makes a lot of sense since they are vibrating the rest.

How is the Ubber going for you? Dave's power cords are very good too.

FB,

This is the index page for what PI Audio keeps up with.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=176

This is the ongoing product and price page.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=102422.0

Dave is a smallllll operation and seems to have taken the easier route of a forum for a broad range of information on his stuff. Like HPDJ, I find him very easy to email with, but also dedicated, honest and smart.

I got the Uber to try because I knew and trusted him from experience talking with him, and because he was recommended by Eric Hider, the Tranquility DAC guy  whom I also trust and think is smart, has great ears, and looks deeply in a creative ways in a perpetual quest for home audio sounding "real."

I was going to get what Lon and Greg got, at the time for 1000 for Bstock, and Dave sort of subtly said he was going for complete transparency, indicating by my take that the power plant may have a "sound" to him. However, I trust Lon and Greg's opinions, and who knows which I might like better had I gone to the effort instead of just keeping the Ubber (at the old price). And really, does not everything have a signature?

Also the Tranquility DAC outperformed many DACs at many times its cost at the time I got mine according to many testers, including the 1st Perfectwave DAC...opinions...Then after talking with Eric, I got one slightly used (it had been upgraded to a Signature) to try and have not looked back. It is by the way a NOS DAC...44.1K. The Tranquility team worked to beat it in double blind tests with Async/High Rez DACs they were developing (as well as the usual suspects from1 to 3K at the time) and just couldn't beat their NOS DAC. The NOS DAC sounding more real. Don't know if they have pulled teh High-Rez off yet or not, but Eric's theory is that there is a lot of data in 44.1 K that had not been previously exploited, but they do. I can't say, as I have not compared, but for those who did, and were vocal about it on the web, the majority use Tranquility. Since then, Eric put in a newer output section that upped the anti on mine considerably. It sounds very very "real" to me, with amazing ambient Q's from low end tones right through the highs, always a very good indicator of "resolution" of detail and micro detail...while remaining very musical.

Just more food for thought.

Wil

FB,

You may not need what Lon an Greg need, or you may. Both are in big city areas if I am not mistaken and may have noisy lines. I had good results with just a Brickwall for audio for noise, but my power was apparently good. The Uber does more conditioning proportionate to price increase, and it does have a very dynamic and organic/transparent sound to me.

Quote:


Sounds like a good idea. These are not surge suppressors. You definitely have EMF and RFI if there are electric things in your house, and a fair bit of it. Do some googling.

FB,

I left out something important. I had gotten a EMI filter from Alan Maher early on and still use it. It is a little plugin black box that cost a little over 100 some years ago. It has a little circuit board in it that is supposed to clean up the power lines and the room EMI. I found it to clean up the sound quite notably.

Also, I started out with some of his little boxes of crystal rock that is treated somehow. Apparently they act as little semi-conducters, pulling noise off the wires in the house. I got 4 for 100 and put two on the mains lines coming into the house, one on the circuit breaker for my music, and one at the outlet for the audio. These were notable too after they settled in a day.

Later I got a schumman resonator unit from KEMP (200) which also made a notable change in cleanliness and sound stage.

So the brickwall and these really cleaned up my sound a lot.

Have you checked out http://bluecircle.com/index.html

I almost got a "thingy" once or a "sillycone" filter. There was a Positive Feedback issue some years back that reviewed a bunch of cheaper power cleaners, and I found Blue there.

You can reach Dave at dgelledges@msn.com

Hey guys,

Lon, I have not tried grungebuster dots, but maybe those in conjunction with what Bob is suggesting with the cutting boards under the Trap's would be a good idea...

Will, I still have not been able to demo the UberBuss with my system yet...I've been trying to schedule with the company (Swap Meet Audio) here in NY and haven't heard back from them in a few days. I guess I'll have to give them another ring :/

Oh and also, I wasn't thinking that I'd use stands on my desk, I was originally thinking that I'd get stands that stood on either side of the desk about as tall as the level I have the Trap's at right now...but maybe it will be easier to try something like Bob is suggesting first