I'm amazed at the number of "informed" audiophiles who don't know about decware and refuse to take a look.  I'm lucky to live in Illinois so it's easy to make a trip to East peoria for pickup of amps/service and Decfest.  After several times getting the cold shoulder from audio boutiques Decware staff is most accommodating and down right friendly! It's also a no bulls*** place that has regular people doing exceptional work..all questions are answered and the design is superb, worth far more than costs.  I think you have to get people to take the first step; go to this website, read, then make a visit and hear and compare...but most people can't/won't make the effort and just stay in their same audio rut

Dave A.   dla405j

I think, it all has to do with the creator. With Decware products, I always get the feeling, that I am buying the best "sound", because of the effort put in is more than 100%. For my ZOB, there are options that Steve has mentioned, but I feel that the DFR, will do a good job. I always tell my friends that when I get something from Decware, it normally means "look no further"

shreekant

I must say that I am more than 100% satisfied with my Decware purchase.  When I was doing research into different speakers and companies I often found myself getting stand offish comments about my amp - SE84ZS.  They were not blatant responses but definitely had an underlying tone.  People hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see based on price and name, not by sound quality.  From the quality of service and product that I received from Steve and company, all of my future component purchases will come from Decware (outside of a turntable).

Good points gentlemen!

Stone, the thing that mystifies me is when there are those that DO listen as we do and they aren't interested in trying Decware because it has no "name" they know.

Ah well!

Yes, that story, I bet we could find hundreds of examples, and we wouldn't be surprised.

It's human nature, I certainly have exhibited that type of behavior in many other forms. One example would be when my late wife talked me into seeing the movie by Mira Nair called "Monsoon Wedding." It didn't have a single actor I'd heard of, nor was it directed by anyone I knew of, and I had very low expectations. Turns out it was one of the very best movies I have ever seen, and I've seen it multiple times, and each time it moves me to my core, it makes me an emotional puddle. Cinematic art at its finest. And I would have glossed right over it because. . . it had no "names."

We'll just have to keep on keeping up the good fight!

More Decware publicity from cnet:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20029188-47.html?tag=cnetRiver

Comments are about what you would expect.

ny, you've touched on why I let my subscription to Stereophile lapse for years. I learned a lot reading it for years, but I also was increasingly alienated by some of the attitudes that revealed themselves to me.

ski bum, thanks for the link. Yeah, the comments are just about what I expected!

mike, I think you've raised a very interesting thought. Pondering it, I think it makes quite a bit of sense.

I agree absolutely. . . the author is fighting the good fight. . . and a lot of the comments show how hard the struggle can be.

All the typical comments as in the cnet articles makes me wonder something.  They always seem to get so hot and bothered arguing the SET thing, but reading between the lines most have not even bothered listening to one based on high output impedance or some other technical flaw.  They think the whole approach is insane, and won't even allow themselves personal experience with it.  Ever notice that the DBT criteria of Aczel et al are so restrictive that SETs could never qualify?  As a skeptical dude who happens to like SET sound, it makes me wonder what they're afraid of.  They discount them on principle.  Their objectivist sycophants follow their lead.  

But that's a lot of potential customers to ignore.  What I was wondering is if an 'objectivist' flavored pitch would work on them.    

A pitch including up front that the SET thing follows a different paradigm which is highly subjective, thus nullifying their primary arguments.  Some solid statistics supporting subjective preference (Steve will have to set up the Decware equivalent of the Pepsi Challenge at Northwoods or something.  Is Northwoods Mall still there?  I'm pretty sure Decware gear would outshine any equivalently priced conventional system, call it a hunch).  A pitch with transfer function analysis explicitly detailing the measurable factors of what the SETs do differently; they love data, and may be receptive as long as it wasn't pitched to them using tell-tale 'snake oil' terms they have been conditioned to negatively react to from years of reading TAC.  And a pitch including the cost/value of Decware gear, of course; most objectivists are economically conservative, frugal types.

Waddaya think?  Did I add too much Bailey's to my coffee this morning, or am I on to something here?    

I kind of like the low key Decfest approach Steve has chosen to take.  It's more fitting.  Decware seems a true labor of love by a passionate hobbyist.  If he were to invest in doing exhibitions at RMAF or similar events, it would force him to raise his prices.  Plus, such events are widely scorned for the unsubstantiated stuff that is promoted.  To the objectivist die-hards, such events are veritable monuments to 'snake oil' audiophoolery, and participation there by Steve may make them even less inclined to be open minded.

No, I was thinking more basic than that.  None of the single ended gurus use an explicitly objectivist flavored pitch that I've noticed, which could be a missed oportunity.  Remember how sensitive the objectivist sect is to certain triggers.  Whenever one of those folks sees SET and 'Hi-Fi' together in a sentence they go into apopleptic fits over the correct definition of hi-fi.  Mention 'holographic imaging' and they launch into a pedantic and tiresome review of DBT methodology and why such terms are nonsense.  Unfortunately, and despite the fact that many of them wouldn't know a DBT if it bit them on the ass, their views lie on solid intellectual ground, so breaking through their dogmatic shell is indeed a difficult task.  I guess the question is are there enough of these nitwits to make marketing to them specifically worth the effort.  

So what I was thinking is very simple, just a tab on the site, a link with all the hard data consolidated and presented in a no nonsense, "this ain't magic, it is what it is, here's the facts; many wildly prefer it despite it's technical flaws; give it a try" way.  There may be quite a few compulsive folks who have an inner dancing fool just waiting to be unleashed.

I don't have any problem waiting for the pages to load here.

mac,

WELCOME. And thanks for bringing another view point to the discussion!

I have to agree with OB and RR in that I'm even most of the time using a now obsolete operating system and the Decware pages load up about normal speed to other websites. . . .

It's really hard to make that first leap into an SET.  I remember saving a few months and even using part of the proceeds from the sale of a motorcycle to buy my first Zen amp, ole 27. It's almost like a leap of faith. . . and really in my experience it's also almost like falling from your horse outside of Damascus and becoming a believer to the core. I found another path to great sound, one I'm still happily on.

"objectivist sect" Post #19 from skibum so elequently put. I left the Minnesota Audio Society because of the Dogma.

Pick your illusion not specs! Thank goodness for Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg, Nelson Pass and Steve Deckert and the balls to do what they do and Harvey did. It's about the ear brain connection, NOT engineering specs. I love Nelson's famous quote......about this (easy to find).

Furthermore, it is not about JUST Audiophile Recordings either-I own Reference Recordings from Reference Recordings and I enjoy them as much as the next guy. However, as Guttenberg mentioned, you need forgiving Amplification {Zen C(S)} to enjoy all of your music collection. Even though, most Rock Music CD's are to F'd up to listen to through the Zen Select with its Transparency. But the Jazz I love comes through incredibly. Once again, pick your illusion to your ear brain (thank you Harvey, Nelson & Steve).

Well, my Zen Select is all warmed up!  Time for some MUSIC.  8-)

Stone of Tone

Yes! This was one of my favorites from the Guttenberg posts.....dogma dogma and more dogma.

Stone of Tone

This is a great thread.
Only thing I could think of to add to this is the people on this forum are unlike the skeptics out there. Anyone I have had the pleasure of talking to at a Decfest will have the same comment on equipment non Decware related. They will say if they have heard of equipment but if they have not physically listened to it, they won't give a comment from another source. They will say what they think if they have given the time to listen or enjoy equipment. They won't tell me what their Aunt's cousin's best friend's ex-roommate's step brother heard...
I am only a rookie with the SET setup and haven't gone back since I've heard it. It really changed my view on music and source sound with the difference it makes.

Years ago, Decware had an advantage with less competition from other web based forums, and the SET craze was on the growth curve.

Now maybe the market interest in small tube amps has been satisfied.

Or maybe everyone is doing multi-channel HT or earbuds.

About 24 hours ago I started a thread on the Steve Hoffman forum about the ZSTAGE.

Members there are always asking for recommendations for something like the ZSTAGE. And they get responses about Marantz, Jolida, NAD, Creek, Musical Fidelity, Chinese preamps, etc. The ZSTAGE is so much more. . . . I started a thread and it has been viewed 74 times so far. . . and not one response. Which I guess is better than those usual "tubes color, no power, etc." comments.

http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=240507

This proves Lon's point, if it is not a brand name.....dead silence. I find it interesting people don't pick up on the fact that Steve's Amps are not directly heated triodes (DHT's), well they get that part I hope, are Pentodes run in Triode that can drive 4 and 2 ohm loads down to a dead short. Transformers are his wind and he has an EX Traney too.

These facts convinced me to try the Zen Select and the rest is History. Guttenberg made it clear in his article too, "good bass-not your typical tube amp (I'm paraphrasing)"....and it is made clear in Steve's papers etc.... .

A lot of people can't break free of their ignorance and arrogance.....as DMB says....ants marching?

Stone of Tone

Glad to hear Andrew-glad indeed. I should audition a pair of Zu's.

In keeping with what I like to hear/exploit from my Loudspeakers with the Zen Select.....I am going to try these below and see if they can dethrone my LS-90's. I want to hear how they fare in my 2nd system too for HT, Sirius SAT Radio, HDTV broadcast and Solid State Music listening (8 out of 10 discs are with the Zen Select though).

http://hometheaterreview.com/aperion-audio-verus-grand-tower-speakers-reviewed/?...
Stone of Tone

I really believe it's all about misconceptions.

Audiophiles are bombarded with reviews of mega watt amplifiers that have the "grip" and "bass control" that only high wattage (insert tube or transistor)amps deliver.

Of course they have no experience with DecWare amps.

I have made a few references about my recent positive experiences with my Zenselect, and stated how powerful those 2 DecWare watts are.

Almost all the posts thereafter , say it just can't be possible to get the type of sound that I am describing with the type of amplifier I am talking about.

I figure their loss my gain.

So trying to change these long held misconceptions about power quantity vs power quality is one tough nut to crack.

Maybe my amp and speaker combination(Ref 3A Grand Veena)really is at the crux of the matter and I am one of the fortunate to have such a winning combination,but unless you try a DecWare amp with whatever speakers you own, how will you know?

That's how I found out and couldn't be happier.

Doesn't Decware (still) have a 30 day return policy?-best audition there is. One's own home, with one's own electronics!
Best, Don

Don, someone on the Hoffman forum interestingly noted that to return a component within 30 days means a restocking fee of 15 percent and freight two ways, not a light thing. I had never thought of that. . .I've only once been tempted to send back a Decware product and didn't.

Speaking for myself, I've had several persons over who wanted to hear Decware sound over the years, but I haven't had any Decware listening get togethers and aren't inclined in that direction. I do usually have a weekly gathering of two or three friends, we used to watch Lost together live or on dvr, we now watch Fringe, and we listen to music and have a great time. They think my system sounds amazing. That's the main reason the event is at my place 90 percent of the time.

I know Steve has had some bad experiences in the past with reviewers, but why not do a room (and do it right) at the next Rocky Mountain Audio Fest?  (Doing it right means reserving a decent room, having plenty of equipment there, and setting up well in advance.  Too many vendors blow in at the last minute with more excuses than equipment and offer a crummy presentation.)

Why don't some of the faithful here post equipment reviews of their favorite Decware pieces on AudioCircle/etc.?  You could all pile on the raves.

Speaking of AudioCircle, some vendors have teamed up, to the benefit of both.  The prime example is Audio by Van Alstine and Salk Speakers.  They promote each other's stuff and present together at the big shows.

Years ago Randy held an audiofest which I thought went quite well.  While not do more of them?

When I picked up my FTA-2000 speakers from Bob Brines he gave me a business card that had a picture of my speakers on it.  You'd better believe I've been a card carrying member of Bob's club ever since.  And I pull it out whenever I can slide the conversation towards audio.

Frankly it looks like Steve is happy to remain at his current level of production and if that's the case, good for him.

Quote  "Lon" - "Good suggestions below about posting reviews on Audio Circle, etc. I'm "internetted" out, I need to spend less time online not more, and I'm also more and more turned off by the idea of "reviewing" amps etc, it's all so subjective, and I find cliche's like "the musicians are in the room" etc. so very wearying and not really "telling." But for those who know how to translate these I guess the process can be helpful. "


Hi Lon,

It's good to see that you are still contributing to the forum and "fighting the good fight".  It's a shame that more folks are unaware that there is something much better than the often expensive mass produced and "name recognition" audio gear .....

I guess I'm guilty of being one of the worst "offenders" in the "musicians in the room" club .....

As you suggest, the phrase may be overused, but sometimes helpful to those who feel that they can translate the term correctly ..... but it goes a bit deeper with me.

When I say that an audio system puts the performers in the room, it has to be something pretty special.  From my experience, this effect usually happens with very high quality recordings ..... more often than not of very sparse recordings with a minimum number of instruments and voices.  It seems that the vocals have the ability to be "in the room" much more often than the instruments.  I am a huge fan of female voice, and when the vocalist is so palpable and three dimensional that I get the feeling that she is singing to me personally I have no problem describing that sensation as being "in the room". Admittedly, these recordings are not the norm ..... but I have a good number of them in my collection that qualify.

But, the recording is only part of what is needed .....
I have heard more audio gear and systems than I care to think about over the years.  Some of the systems were very good ..... some not so good.  Of all the systems that I have heard, I have honestly only heard a very few that would qualify as having the ability to pull off this effect.

One such system was at a DecFest at Steve's old place.  A single Zen Select was driving a pair of Parker Audio Crusaders and a pair of SO Imperial subs in parallel.  The effect was incredible and made the jaws of several seasoned music lovers drop to the ground.

Another system was at the HornFest a few years ago with a pair of The Horns being driven by a $30,000.00 GM-70 based amplifier designed and built by Jim Dowdy (the Dowdy Lama).  I have been to live events that were not nearly as captivating and everyone in attendance was stunned.

Two other systems that pull this off on a regular basis are the system I have at home and a very similar system at Parker Audio Dave's home.  Both of these systems have very similar and superb front ends, high resolution loudspeakers and custom built DH-SET amplification.

It should be noted that all of the systems mentioned above feature loudspeakers with either no crossover components or very, very simple ones consisting of a single capacitor between the mid-bass driver and high quality "tweeter", either a ribbon or a Heil Air Motion Transformer.  It's only my opinion (for what it's worth), but I have never heard a more complex speaker that could get me close enough to the music to put the vocalist "in the room".

I am fully aware that the bridge between live and recorded music can never be fully crossed ..... but the systems mentioned above have the ability to get me close enough to the music that I become lost in the performance. As to whether the performers are in my room or I am in the recorded space with them can be debated ..... but either way, it's a good place to be .....

Stay well and happy listening,

Randy

Yep ..... that's why most of the folks I know are driving $40,000.00 automobiles and I drive a Ford Focus ..... but, they have their Bose Waves or big box store rack systems and I have what I have .....

Take care,

Randy

Those are likely valid observations Jeff!