looks like im buying more mdf going to build a wo for 2 x 12s, questiuon is this,
with all you guys knowledge, would you build it 36x36x14 or, scale it with the same ratio a 10 is to a 12, ie multiply all dimensions by 1.2 (or the surface area difference?)

im leaning towards scaleing the whole thing because it sems right to build the thing a bit bigger for a bit bigger sub, trying to squeeze a 12 into a box made for 10s seems silly 2 mi. wadda you think and why?

same here

I built UP and love it.

60
remember awhile back somebody was going to modify the WO so the sealed chamber was bigger or a mod of some sort that left a triangular hump to the top lid.
I wonder what came of it? I don't remember who and threads were disappearing back then.

I would not mess with the "horn part" I would add 2" I think thats what Big air used and it worked, but correct me if I am wrong.

how about you try a 12" WO32 and let me know how it works, nobodys done it yet that I know of.

[quote author=Gex  link=1149820011/0#6 date=1149996280]60
remember awhile back somebody was going to modify the WO so the sealed chamber was bigger or a mod of some sort that left a triangular hump to the top lid.
I wonder what came of it? I don't remember who and threads were disappearing back then.

I would not mess with the "horn part" I would add 2" I think thats what Big air used and it worked, but correct me if I am wrong.

how about you try a 12" WO32 and let me know how it works, nobodys done it yet that I know of. [/quote]
hmmm, Jrock said that using high excursion drivers (rl-p has 24mm xmax) in front loaded horns might not have good results. at least not at high power.
60, did you manage to find another rl-p ?
too bad mike doesn't sell rl-p 10s
it would surely be a great choice for a wo.

i'm pretty sure it won't pose any problems. just ask on ssa about a reccomended port area for the rl-p12. the wo provides 17 sqin of port area if the opening is 1.25" * 14". should be enough.
i don't think scaling up will play a lot lower. THAT would be messing with the design.
just how much sealed volume does the wo offer ?
recomended sealed box for the rl-p is around 1.25 cf.

Sorry for the second post.

In regards to useing the recommended sealed enclosure volume, vented enclosure port area etc.

You cannot expect to know what the WO will do for your sub while just compareing the recommended enclosure specs to the WO.  Changing one thing on the WO, like throat size, will result in a different animal. (Steve recommends opening the throat more for the WO to play High Frequencies better.)

Messing with the chamber sizes will change the Q of the box and make it sound boomier or more quiet.

The only way to get a good representation would be to model a 4th order BP tuned to 45 Hz with the chambers the same size as the WOs.  This is what Steve suggests, and what has worked for me in the past.

So what does this mean?  Well 60, if you want to decide to scale or to add 2 inches:

Model the 4th order BP tuned to 45Hz with both changes done.  It won't compensate for the different horn dimensions, but it will give you an idea of how the volume changes of the chambers in each situation will help or hurt the WO's ability.

But I would not scale it for some of the same reasons as BassBoy mentioned.  Added to the fact that if the WO is a horn, horns do not work the same when scaled.  If it is indeed an "Impedance transformer" or "Rubber throat"  basically a wideband port, changeing it by scaling will mess with it even more than adding 2 inches.  SO I would select the lesser of two evils.

i have /use/ understand no software, winamp boxbuild etc.but it seems your all saying not to scale it? but just to add 2 inches in height and angle the baffle? can you explain in simple terms what effect scaleing it by 1.2 might have? to me it seems the shape and layout of the horn / throat is almost identical , just a little bigger? cant see how that will effect / change performace that much, but if you can shed some light on the issue for me id appreciate it.

60, it's hard to say what will happen.  The reason is because the horn is way too small to do what it does if horn theory is applied to it.  It is true that bigger horns are better if you want to go low, but we are talking about a horn that is about 20 feet long with a 27 sq foot mouth to get a 20 hz note.  And that still requires corner loading.  Use that sucker for a coffee table (lol) and it would suck hard.  You don't want to mod that much, do you?

Nobody really knows exactly what will happen when you mess with the horn, that's why you aren't getting any more than guesses.

But everyone seems to agree that you should change it only as much as you absolutely have to.

If I had to do it, I might extend the height and width (to make the chambers a bit bigger), and leave the depth alone.  But I would also take care not to make the horn longer, or change it in any way.  Now it won't fit in a car anymore either.  If you don't care about going lower, just add 2 inches, I can almost guarantee that will be the loudest option.

Now if anyone thinks differant or knows differant I am all ears

[quote author=60ndown  link=1149820011/15#19 date=1150053439]where does steve sujjest adding 2 inches for 12s? [/quote]

Well until I can get back onto ADSL the search is up to you.
I did talk with him about putting 12" in a WO32 quite awhile back, and he said to use 12" in a WO instead and adjust the height to accomdate the larger driver.( too slow to use spell checker, now you know I can't spell either LOL)
then in HT forum when we were talking about HT specifically he said to use the DB12.

I never doubt Steve I just like to play around and not follow good advice.
I need a better driver to make it work well and his dayton series 2 choice is what I would use.
Thats all I got 60. I see that you posted in the general I would like to see what comes of that with the pros in there.

[quote author=musgofasa  link=1149820011/15#21 date=1150072495]Hey 60, I just realized this post was over here after I replied to your other post a few minutes ago. After reading the posts here, I have a little more info that might be more appropriate.
Way back in the day (1999 to be exact) I had built several 10"WO and experimented with porting the sealed chamber, angling the baffle, moving the baffle etc in an attempt to make the box play louder. Every change I made to the original design had the affect of changing the frequency response of the enclosure. moving the baffle towards the throat made the frequency response a little lower, but made the box very boomy. It did not help the SPL output at all. (In car) When I built a WO exactly by the plans and put a pair of 8" woofers in it I was so surprised at how clean and loud the box was. I later took and swapped to building Vented enclosures for SPL for reasons of achieveing a wall mounting in vehicles. I built a box for a CRX with 2 JL 15W3s and went a little overboard. I used the flare rate and the length from a WO36 and extended the port all the way to the front and double loaded the box. This thing was so smooth and Loud it was unbelievable. That has been my approach to almost every project since then. Basically I think of the WO as a band pass enclosure with a tuned port. The horn flare isn't long enough to act as a transducer and or impedance changing device across much of a frequency range. When I added to all the dimensions of the enclosure I found that the desired effect of the horn/port was lost. It just became a long port rather than having any positive effect on sound quality.
The rub is you don't know what it will sound like until it is built and you don't know if you will like it until you hear it. I know that for my personal tastes, I wouldn't build the box in a 1.2 size unless I was looking for large bass and little freq range. I think that would be a safe bet. If you are only looking to make it sound bigger then scale away. I wouldn't want to try to model the output based on the horn length as it is so short that I am sure it would only show a graph like that of a tuned port or a standard "bass reflex" enclosure. If you like that idea, then I would say build away though. Perhaps the question is what is the sound that you hope to achieve and what science and experience is available to work towards that goal. Wish I could offer a solid answer here, but I think it is a little bit of a niche that hasn't been tested enough to give good, solid answers about. Unfortunately all of my experience with 12" WOs has been boomy and SPL intended for cars not homes. All of the Home audio experience I have with WO has been great, but little mods. Hope you get what you are looking for there 60. let us know.

Robert [/quote]

great response thanks, what i want first is excellent sq, secondly the ability to make 'sickeningly' loud and accurate bass (but retaining absolute sq) if im in the mood.not spl, just amazing sq and really loud (sql).from your above post im guessing any variation from the 'origional wo10' results in a less flat response? so like i have been told above, sounds like building it 36 x36 x 14.5 is the first version i must try! but it will a few days before im ready to build it so if you think of anything else i would appreciate the heads up.

i want as flat as possible from 18 too 60 / 70  hz, in my car with this box.flat dry accurate bass with the ability to get plenty loud.did you ever build 1 with the difference in size being equal to the difference in sq inch area between a 10 and a 12? i have no idea what that is? wed have to work out the sq inch of a 10 then a 12 and reveal the % of difference. then build the new wo by that % scaleing difference.i just dont understand why, if the layout of the wo is kept identical to the origional, just bigger, why it will change the performance, taper would be the same?

[quote author=Adrian D.  link=1149820011/15#25 date=1150117310]seeing how the rl-i 10 performs... (better than my db-10 + infinity ref1040w, only it's in a box twice the size of mike recomeds) i'd suggest trying the wo with 2 of rl-is. but you will have to watch the gain. the orion could kill them. maybe wire each in series and parallel the 2 subs. it would present the orion a 4 ohm load. [/quote]

no, going to use these rl-ps if it kills me.not buying new subs, the wife will kill me

why is it ok to scale it for a car but not for a house?

anyone ever tried a 12" housewrecker in a car? my car being a toyota previa 7 seater mini van.

im no spl guy, im a sq with as much L as possible

[quote author=musgofasa  link=1149820011/30#33 date=1150158025]LOL
It's been a long time. It was way too easy to get caught up trying to make things louder. Considering the vehicle, I would seriously say do the WO. It is much faster and more "real" sounding than any other BP enclosure I have used and I feel certain that you will be able to play with it's placement to get the tone and punch you are looking for. The mods would be relative and I think it would perform very well for you. If you are looking for more SQ than even the WO, I would consider a compression design. I built a very cool and easy design a long time ago that was very solid, but unfortunately it was not very nice to my woofers. The sound was as good as anything I have built, but my woofers disentigrated after a few months of pounding on them. If you like, I can find the measurements on that thing for you too just to kick around. [/quote]

compression!??, now your talkin bout the death box right?

looks interesting  ???

In all reality, there was no engineering in that enclosure. It was just an idea that we acted on and afterwards were surprised with the reusults. If anybody would like to model it and see what the numbers look like it was pretty simple.
The enclosure for 12s was 14 inches wide x 12 inches tall and 32 inches long. The opening is 2" and the sides are symmetrical. (The board is 2" from the bottom at the opposite end from the opening. Simple, quick and surprisingly good sounding. Scrap wood and scrap woofers turned into loading 18 10" woofers in a crx lol.
6 boxes stacked with 3 10" in each lol.

Robert

It worked pretty awesome with a single 10' high excursion driver. I don't remember the dimensions off hand.
I will sit down monday and draw it up for you. I think I can remember how this one worked lol. I won't promise that the woofer will stay together under extreme power though. We did have some explosions with this thing, LOL.

Robert

I don't think it would be an issue with only one driver. The biggest problems we had were when we went to three drivers. My belief is that the subs were fighting each other to compress the air in front and behind at different rates because of the taper. It sounded great and produced massive SPL for a small enclosure, but the woofer that always blew was the one at the back of the enclosure.
The cone actually disentigrated in a few of these.

Robert