I've had the housewrecker for about 3 months now, getting a good feel for it (meaning; doesn't seem as impressive as it used to.) For HT use it just doesn't seem enough, and turning the knob up just creates the horrible 'klopping' sound from drivers hitting mechanical limit. Currently using 900 watts bridged to two Dayton series II 15" drivers, magnets mounted in center chamber. Seems like these are 'accepted' drivers for this use. Has anybody got any hz or db numbers on a set up such as this? Has anyone found a different mounting arrangement achive better results for 2 drivers? I'd rather spent time/effort on my surrounds, as opposed to putting two more drivers in the enclosure, but is that what it's going to take? As a few of you know by the pictures, they won't be easy to take the existing drivers out, or rearrange. So 'playing' with it just to put them back would be aggravating. Adding won't be a problem, just $$$ not spent on surround drivers.

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys,  Bob

BTW, Have moved it around the room many times (lower back hurts) I made a base that it sits on (big hole facing down) much like the sono tube arrangements with 5" of air space between it and floor.  The twin holes are firing perpendicular, behind and right of the seating position. (pics can be seen on "amp to make Daytons happy" thread page 12, reply #171.)

series II have only 8mm xmax and can handle 'only' 300w. so my guess is that, with 450w to each of them they're bottoming out.
try to remove one of the lids and play some really low notes (like 10-15hz) to see if the noise you are hearing is really the drivers bottoming out or you have some leaks.
are you sure you wired them right ?

Damn Bob, it sure sounds like a wiring problem to me.

I have built three HW's and each one has been way more than my house can stand.  I use the 250watt plate amp for HT and bass traps in all corners of the room.

paulc, I want to tell my boss I've got to go home for an emergency to check my wiring.  

As far as woodworking skills, at the risk of sounding arrogent, I would say better than average. (better than spelling) 9 ounces of Gorilla glue was used in the construction. I would say it could be used as a submarine if it werent for the 3 big holes in it.  ;D

I'm really worring about the wiring to the individual voice coils. I know the drivers ARE out of phase though.

If your rockin' the house with 250watts, somethings wrong with mine. - and it IS built to spec.

Bob

I'M SORRY GUYS. I've got the series II's.  Adrian, you read correctly. Sorry, my head was in my butt.
Here's what I got...

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-130&CFID=4954...

DD, using the shakers occationally. I mounted them in the bottom of the seat cushion. Just under a sensitive bodily area. They need to be moved to the back I think. When they are turned up, it vibrates parts of my innards that don't need to be vibrated.

Pics of the shakers mounted are here...

http://community.webshots.com/photo/549522535/2690067230085868784FhZCXU

Bob

Yes, Adrian, you are correct. I've second guessed myself so much, I could'nt even remember what I bought. The are out of phase. Inside the box I "Y"ed the wires, (soldered them with heat shrink) then ran + to +, - to - to one driver, and + to -, and - to + to the other driver. That's ok isn't it?

Bob

What do you have for wiring, are the 2 subs on one channel of the legion amp?

If so, You might want to look into a sperate amp for your shakers.

Legion gives these specs.
225 x 2 at 8ohm
900 x 1 at 4ohm (mono)

I would parallel your subs and bridge them to your amp, works out to 450 watts a sub.  a sub on each channel gives you 225watts a sub, both subs on one channel gives you 200 a sub.

Not sure if those are RMS or just watts.

In any case, 450 a sub will make them much louder, plus you will be able to re-wire them to make sure the wiring is correct. (I assume it is already anyways.)

Abotu the knocking, that amp is defineatly not overpowering your subs, it may be clipping.

perhaps the amp is not cliping, but the source is.  

How do you have the system wired?

If the amp is indeed fed by a source unit (i.e. reciever):
1. Turn the sub amp all the way down.
2. Place music in source and turn it up till you hear audible distortion, turn it down a bit. (Remember this volume as max volume)
3. With music still cranked, turn sub up until it sounds good, or you hear distortion.

Now your gain is dialed in for max output without distortion.

No offense to anyone but I have Series II in both my HWK15s and have been a fan of Daytons ever since. I am not sure what to tell you BOB. It sounds like everthing is hooked up right and with IIs, plus 450w+, I don't think you should have any problem going low or loud. One HWK with two Daytons(hooked up the same as you) with about 300w will hit between 115db to 120db(3ft away) and rolls off hard around 28Hz to 25Hz depending on the material being played. Understand this is my set up and almost every set up is different. I also use the Ultrabass Pro EX1200(Behringer) if I need that extra punch or low,low bass. Besides sometimes when the whiskey is flowing my system doesn't sound loud enough for me either. Just keep on "BOOMING"  and you will figure out what you like the best.   HT-EXT

Dumb question, but what does 'WAF' stand for?! It's been driving me nuts trying to figure out.

All I've found is Women in the Air Force, What A Fag, and somethin' else......None of which make sense in the context in which it's used on these forums.

I'm not sure what the Dayton's or other speakers cost, but when I spoke to Steve, he told me that the HW's were designed for Black Widows. Why fight it? Just buck up!

Checked Parts Express, $175 each if this is them...

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=294-303

Bob

Wreckin', how many drivers do you have installed, and how are they positioned?

Bob

rewire the drivers so they get more power for a little bit.

I am betting they just don't have th eumph they want.

I have the magnets in the center chamber. Like John in CR stated, if you remove the upper woofer, you will get much lower sound but less control at high volume. The HW will also be much more efficient. Almost forgot your question, I have two woofers per HW.

the klopping is coming from your source then, especially at 1/4 volume

turn the bas down on your source and crank the sub amp's gain up.

Those subs will not bottom out and klop at that wattage, the amp I doubt could ever bottom them out.

The klopping therefore has to be a loose board, or your source clipping.  I assume your construction is plenty strong, so clipping will do it.

The box's intended use will nto fource it to handle less power or klop.

Well, if it only klops at the very low frequencies, then it may be driver related.  I read it that it klops whenever tyou crank it, music movies etc..

Bob Have a look at this site. You could get 10hz in a small cube, but you will need to get new drivers, and the amp to go with it.

Mr C

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/index.htm

Bob sell what you have got to finance it.

Mr C

Bob,

You are right. If you use a super low 6th order alignment, you will lose efficiency. The reason it works is many drivers have power handling capacity that makes the efficiency less of an issue. You should actually see 2 humps in the response with a 6th order enclosure. One around the 10Hz range and another around 28Hz, if I can remember  correctly, using Dan Wiggins' design. The isobaric chamber should smooth out some of the unevenness of the alignment. BUT, like John pointed out, it will support your drivers at a much lower frequency with Dan's dimensions.

You might also try the driver placement that John mentioned for your current box with the drivers in the smallest chamber, and close off one of the two ports in that chamber.

Bob,
I can totally understand your frustration with the HWK and it crapping out at ultra mega low frequencies.  I had the same issue and it bugged the crap out of me.  

I'm in no way affiliated with, financially interested in or otherwise have anything to gain by recommending this but take at look at www.billfitzmaurice.com specifically the TableTuba.  I know you said you didn't want to buy new drivers but the driver for that enclosure is $40 shipped.  

I replaced my HWK with dual 15"s and 1500W with a tabletuba loaded with a cheap 8 and 150W and it blows it away.  The efficiency of a folded horn is incredible.  The proof for me was Master & Commander.  The HWK just flat out could not keep up with the cannon fights but the tabletuba rumbles ALL the way down.  It's quick thanks to the small driver but still unbelievable low and loud.

You can build it with 2 sheets of 1/2" MDF or ply so the wood costs are really low.  It's a bit intimidating to build because of all the angles but once you get into it, it's not that bad.  I built mine in a weekend.  Exterior dimensions are about 30x30x16.  

Not having built a WO or WO32 yet, I cannot do an apples to apples comparison but I can compare the TT against the HWK and the TT takes it hands down.  Add the fact that the TT is an 8" against two 15"s & 10x the power just adds to the margin of victory.

Hope it helps,
Chris

The tabletuba was designed as a home subwoofer for theater and musical applications.  It has a 13 ft path which gives it a very low fc which lends itself well to theater applications.  I can personally attest to it's excellent performance in HT.

If the small box horn (which does extend even lower than the $2k velodyne 12 I originally compared the HWK to) doesn't float your boat, build a bigger one.  The Tuba36 loaded with a 12" or 15" driver would absolutely spank a shiva in any enclosure.  The verticle baffle 15" version extends to like 15hz at 95db 1w/1m. Even if it falls flat on it's face and rolls off at 18db below that, you're still getting ludicrous output to bowel loosening frequencies without sacrificing the higher bass above 40 and 50hz.

There's a reason people use these things to entertain thousands of people at a time.  You're not going to find a Shiva up on stage at the next concert you go to.  I'd really like to see a 2 cube box with a single 12 extend below the mid-teens with an effectively flat response on 150W.  AND still do it for under $100 total build cost (excl amp but incl driver).  I just don't see it happening.

If nothing else, it's worth a try to learn.  I was looking at getting some stroker 15's or 18's for my theater when I found the folded horn design.  I've become enamored with the horn theory and learned quite a bit about what all those TS numbers mean and how horns work.  That's what this is really all about.  It's also a blast to see the look on people's faces when 1 tiny teeny little worthless 8 shakes their ass from 15 feet away.  Check it out, read the forums and decide for yourself.  

I personally will never go back to direct radiators for my sub needs.  That's my opinion and we know opinions are like @$$holes, everyone has one and they usually stink.  I'm not trying to put down steve & prop up bill or vice versa.  I just think in my situation which sounds similar to Bobs, I found a better mouse trap and built it.

[quote author=Bob  link=1145573673/30#38 date=1146485514]Another good idea C.  I'll find out how much it wieghs, then call FedEx for shipping price to Australia, what was you address again??  :-*

BTW, it's painted gray now, to match my walls, but it can change colors very easily, just tell me what color you want.  :D

Seriously, I can't believe anybody would pay much for it, especially since my salespitch hasn't been very positive.

Bob [/quote]

Hmmmm..... I think I might have enough MDF, HDF, PLY. Solid Timber here already Bob, but thank for thinking of me, I appriceat it.  ;D

Mr C

How do you know I haven't sent it a sine wave sweep?  I wouldn't be lauding it's worth unless i've put it through it's paces.  The driver has an xmax of 16mm so there's plenty of excursion.  My front window resonates at 42Hz, the side ones at 35, the large painting in the hallway (more likely the wall itself) around 25, the dog gets mad around 18, etc etc.  If you want or need more, you can put an Eminence 10 (HL10) in it, throw 300 watts at it and probably do damage to your hearing, your relationships with your neighbors and your criminal record.

If you want a 1 note wonder, build a giant 6th order BP. It's going to sound like crap but it'll be loud.  Have fun trying to blend it with your 3 other tuned wonders and then your mains to get the full audio spectrum.   A Bandpass is just that.  It's a "lets focus our attention at a couple frequences and play the hell out of them and ignore the rest".  What good really is the movie going experience if a girl banging on the aquarium massages your back while the explosion of a bus allows you to hear the phone ringing in the next room?  You need to be able to play way down low for today's LFE tracks but still blend it well with the frequencies in the 40 to 80/90/120 range (basically however far down your mains will play).

I'm building a Tuba36 right now.  I should be done in a couple weeks and I'll have a comparison to that as well.  I'm fairly confident I'll find it blows everything including the TT away.  That the TT can handily defeat the HWK, I can only imagine the orders of magnitude that a Tuba36 would outperform a HWK and do it across a MUCH wider range.

You may be right Bob on the reference point issue.  I've spent a good number of hours and days reading up on enclosures and theories behind them.  I'm in no way claiming to be an expert and anywhere near the knowledge or experience of most of this board and certainly Steve & Bill but I know what I like.  The theory behind horns just makes sense.  A horn (as it's been explained to me) is basically an acoustic leverage device.  A small driver exciting alot of air at one end will excite a large amount of air at the other end of the horn thanks to an exponentially expanding throat.  That's why you don't need a huge driver and kilowatts of power for huge sound.  The imperial cabinet is a type of horn and you see how much everybody here loves the bloody things.  I just don't have the room or I'd probably build one or two.

What I've found in practice supports my opinion that horns rule, a good sealed box will work if you can't have a horn, vented if you're desparate and bandpass if you're only concerned about SPL drag racing.  

Every few months someone brings up the tuba designs and I can't remember why I didn't like them so I check the site again and remember very quickly.

Even on the largest tuba, lf rolloff starts around 40 hz and is down 10 db or more by 20 and still dropping hard, measured for corner response.  You would have to stack at least one more, and probably 3 more, to get close to flat down to 20.

There are much smaller, albeit less sensitive ways to do this.

I've read reports of the WO going flat to 27.

If you want a traditional horn flat down to 15 the mouth is going to be roughly the size of the cross sectional area of your listening room.