Forums - To say the least, the anticipation is building ...

Mr Content Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #250 - 05/23/06 at 10:34:25 I too have enjoyed this thread. I was interested to read about the effect the SO had on the overall soundstage. It had me wondering about a fullrange imperial, and how big the soundstage would be with them ??? Mr C
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Randy in Caintuck

Ex Member

Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #251 - 05/23/06 at 14:27:35

Howdy Dave and Mr C,

As you might expect, most of my time has been devoted to listening .....

Since most of the music I like is not overly heavy in the bass department, Mr C's thoughts about the "overall soundstage" is what I am enjoying most about the SO Imperials ......

It is very easy to get accustomed to the acoustic envelope produced by these speakers. When they are disconnected from the system, it becomes painfully obvious just how much they add to the overall presentation ..... ???

Of course, if there is any serious bass in the music ..... the SOs reveal it with authority and finesse.

I am steadily working my way through my music collection to see what the Imperials do for various disks and types of music. So far, the most impressive thing (to me) is the authority added to a Hammond B3 ..... but, I guess that is to be expected ..... Wink

Over the next week or two, the plan is to pair the Imperials with The Horns to see how that combo works out ..... and to power the Imperials with the plate amp. I am trying hard not to have any preconceptions, but it should be interesting to hear the various combinations.

Several forum readers have expressed interest in hearing the Imperials ..... and I have an open door policy for anyone who wishes to visit. Just email me to let me know your plans. I would also like to get a few folks together for a day or two on a weekend ..... does anyone have a suggestion as to a date ?

Randy

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Adrian D. Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #252 - 05/23/06 at 15:05:00 i'd love to come over on june 24, saturday.
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Adrian D. Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #253 - 05/23/06 at 15:06:44 wait, i just remembered, i live in europe... it's too far.
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Randy in Caintuck Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #254 - 05/23/06 at 15:37:07 Hi Adrian, I have made some long audio road trips, but that would probably be out of my range as well ..... Of course, if you ever make it to the USA, the invitation is open ..... Best wishes, Randy
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Adrian D. Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #255 - 05/23/06 at 17:07:04 thanks . i really want to visit someone on the forum if i ever make a trip to the US.
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Mr Content Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #256 - 05/23/06 at 18:02:03 Thanks for the info Randy. My next room is 16'w x24'l, so I am looking for sub upgrade ideas. ??? Mr C
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dank Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #257 - 06/19/06 at 22:24:01 Randy You try those Imperial SO's pointed into the corners yet? Color me curious. Dank
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Randy in Caintuck

Ex Member

Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #258 - 06/20/06 at 14:52:31

Howdy Dank,

Not yet .....

Between listening to a lot of music in my collection that hasn't been played in a long while, swapping the Parker Audio Behemoths and The Horns in and out of the system and listening with and without the plate amp hooked up to the Imperials I have been a wee bit busy .....

The only problem I can imagine with your suggestion is "what if it really sounds great" ..... ???

I would find myself between a rock and a hard place in the "form vs function" situation ..... Roll Eyes

Curiosity is getting the best of me, though .....

Just to clarify ..... are the cabinets facing directly into the corners ? How far out from the corners is optimal ?

Thanks,

Randy

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dank

Ex Member

Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #259 - 06/21/06 at 16:25:40

Directly into the corner and close to the corner. If you keep the Imperial front edges 6-12 inches away from the walls it should be a good starting place. You should be able to tell as soon as you play some music. Its also pretty forgiving in that I don't think there is one "perfect" spot that sounds better than all other spots. I've done all my corner experiment work with just one sub source (one Imperial in your case) so I don't know how two will act.

DanK

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Lon Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #260 - 07/20/06 at 13:00:11 Randy, Any further impressions? Any decidedly "best" combination of amps and speakers, etc? Thanks!
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Randy in Caintuck

Ex Member

Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #261 - 07/20/06 at 15:27:53

Hi Lon,

Good question ..... ???

First, I must shamefully admit that I have not yet tried Dank's suggestion of flipping the cabinets around and firing them into the corners. As much lip service as I (and many others) pay to the concept of "it's only about the sound", I don't think I could look at the backs of the cabinets knowing how nice the front looks ..... Embarrassed

Even so, I will still have to try it in the near future.

Concerning the different amplifier setups, I am torn between running all speakers from the Select and powering the Imperials from the plate amp. The plate amp will produce more "grunt" ..... hands down. Most of the folks who have visited me for a listening session are very impressed with the output from the Imperials with 100 watts pushing them ..... but being impressed and enjoying music on a daily basis are two different things, as you well know.

As you might imagine, it's a totally different effect running the Imperials full range from the Select. When you drive the Imperials with the plate amp, it's not feasible to run them full range because it muddies up the lower midrange ..... at least in my experience. So ..... a crossover point has to be chosen on the plate amp to get a good blend between the main speakers and the Imperials. I'm still playing with it, but somewhere between 50 and 70 hz seems to be a good point.

Another issue that I have run into is that my room has a "bass suckout" at the spot where my listening seat normally sits. If I move around the room, some areas have a lot of bass energy but the normal listening position has nowhere near as much bass. So, I have been moving my listening seat forward and backward and experimenting with the toe in of the main speakers to make it work. I'm getting there .....

I'm convinced that there is something positive to the full range parallel stereo setup ..... but the benefits are more obvious with some recordings than others. As several people have mentioned that have heard the Imperials, the bass is only one aspect of the overall sound ..... the other is the ambience and sense of the recording space that is added. In my experience, running the Imperials full range in parallel with the main speakers produces this effect to a greater degree.

My very best wishes to you and your wife,

Randy

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Lon

Ex Member

Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #262 - 07/20/06 at 15:48:29

Thanks Randy for the update (and the best wishes).

The big attractant to the use of the Imperials for me would be just that "ambience and the sense of the recording space" that I'm sure they present so well. . . . That sort of depth of sound is the main reason I'm so in love with my Radials. (Or maybe one of the main reasons, there are plenty!)

I'm betting that running them parallel with my Radials on the EL34 Monoblocks would have great sound! Maybe one day (can't even concieve of that day yet, but hey stranger things happen!) I'll be able to get a taste.

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change_out

Ex Member

Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #263 - 07/21/06 at 15:02:09

I fully agree that the Imperials improve with more power and the best playback is with the speakers in parallel.

I bought the KT-88 prototype that Steve had listed on e-bay.
This is an incredible amp. It has the grunt to run the SO's. With this extra power the stage is wider, deeper and life sized in height. The big Decware puts a death grip on the Imperials much like a ss amp will do, but with no losses any where.

I find the Parkers fronting the Imps to be the best combination of speakers with all of the Decware amps.

Tim

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Lon Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #264 - 07/22/06 at 11:21:59 Congratulations Tim! I somehow knew that would be a fine amp!
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dank

Ex Member

Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #265 - 07/24/06 at 14:33:50

Randy

When you use the plate amp to power the Imperials, are you still running your mains full range? The reason I ask is that my plate amp provides an output to the mains that has a 100 hz filter on it to keep the real low bass out of the mains when you are running a sub(s). My impression is that this seems to add a lot to the overall sound quality by removing a lot of the work that the mains have to do. I probably tend to run my stuff a LITTLE louder than you do, so perhaps this won't apply to you, but I was curious if you had observed anything similar.

Dan

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Chris K

Ex Member

Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #266 - 07/24/06 at 15:59:48

Dank,
I'm going out on a limb here but knowing Randy the "mains" are always right off the tube amp and he'd likely never introduce anything between the amp's output posts and main speakers. But instead of answering for Randy, I can say for myself that while I understand the idea and purpose of limiting or cutting off lower bass and sub bass frequencies from the "mains" (100hz down?) and letting a sub take over I have issues with that "scheme".
At certain times I've had the mains cut out from 80hz down and the sub integrated well and everything was powerful and "seamless", but most often I've had the mains running full range and a sub hooked right to the amp/speaker posts so the same signal arrives at the sub, and several things happen here in this type of set-up. You either have cancellation of certain bands of bass and fair to poor integration speed wise with the mains, so you then set about to play around with the phase of the sub and position it so it integrates with the "mains" and loads the room with the mains and not "against" them. In the overlapping frequencies common to the mains and the sub you may get too much bass which is the opposite of cancellation. This can be very bad indeed and is likley due to the geometry of the hard boundaries of your room. If your lucky you can set up the system (sub and mains) in a different area of the room and this may dial it in for you. Or not! However when you get mains running full range in the right room and set up the sub to integrate with no (or very little) cancellations or additions in the bass and sub bass frequencies the synergy is (can be) astounding!!! There is a harmonic interplay between the mains and sub that is euphonic and expands the sound stage to much more realistic depth and width. This effect varies with certain recordings as Randy rightly points out, and different types of music are more suited to take advantage of the effect. Overall I'd say that cutting off the mains and integrating a sub smoothly at the crossover point is a lot easier and is a "tight" solution and sound clean and smooth but when you get the sub integrated right and "playing nice" with main stereo speakers running full range the result is worth it. The room and its dimentions and acoustic properties seem to be one of the major things to deal with and it can be tough with frequencies that create standing waves that are "room sized". Ask Randy what he heard at DecFest full range with the Imperials "in tow" and you know what is described begs to be heard. I've had glimpses here at home.

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Randy in Caintuck

Ex Member

Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #267 - 07/24/06 at 19:16:29

Howdy Dank, Chris,

My plate amp has a similar "satellite output" feature, but I have been afraid to try it considering the low cost of the unit and the questionable quality of the crossover components .....

Because of Lon's inquiry, I spent some time over the weekend doing comparisons between the plate amp and parallel setups to see if my original conclusions were still valid.

My thoughts about the variation between recordings held true ..... and the superiority of the parallel setup was jaw dropping in a few instances. One very good example was the song "Oh Well" from Sara K's album "Hobo". This is a Chesky Records release and the recording is not your typical mass market studio fare. With the Imperials in the parallel setup, the soundstage and accompanying ambience is huge and spacious, with a very natural flow of the decaying notes to the edge of the recorded space. With the plate amp in the mix, there is more bass to be sure, but the presentation seems artificial and "contrived". This is true of the entire frequency range ..... not just the bass ..... ???

Of course, it would be great to have more power while still retaining the subtleties and finesse of the parallel setup ..... and it sounds like Tim has his cake and is eating it too .....

The only problem I can foresee is the impedance issue ..... not too many amplifiers are happy with the 1.6 ohm load of the Parker Audio Crusader / SO Imperial combo or the 2.67 ohm load of the Parker Audio Behemoth / SO Imperial combo. An 8 ohm main speaker paralleled with the SO Imperial would present a 4 ohm load, which should work with most amplifiers.

The amp that Tim purchased must be able to drive a very low impedance .....

Maybe that could be Steve's next project ..... an amp with a bucketload of power that likes a < 2 ohm load .....

Randy

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stone_of_tone Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #268 - 07/25/06 at 13:58:36 Tim, you bought Steve's grunt amp....wow! I just read your post above. Did you post finished pictures of your room...or is it still in progress? Stone of Tone
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change_out Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #269 - 07/27/06 at 04:07:48 Larry, I have not posted any pictures in quite some time. The room is near finished. Paint and trim have been completed. I continue to build bass traps and play with positioning of the diffusers and traps. I spend most of the time listening . Hope to see you at this years fest. Tim
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stone_of_tone Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #270 - 07/31/06 at 03:39:29 Listen first....finish as you go. Yes, see you at this years fest. Stone of Tone
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Randy in Caintuck Ex Member	Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building Reply #271 - 08/10/06 at 18:50:29 Since the SO Imperials are mentioned specifically, it seems like a good idea to have a link in this thread to the thoughts of paulc in his recent visit to my listening room ..... Enjoy, Randy
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