Hi all

Just thought I'd share what will most likely be the last mod of many to my Lil Zen amp.

I have done more than a few mods to this jewel,  this latest mod indeed makes the biggest improvement.  I am certain many have read about the V Caps.  Well, I have had them playing in the amp for a couple of weeks now.  Words are hard to come by when trying to describe the listening experience.  

The caps bring out the last little bit of information that the Zens are so well known for.  The caps also,  for lack of a better term, get out of the way.  The previous bypass caps were Relcaps.  Very highly regarded at the time.  After direct comparison to the new Vcaps, well, there is in fact no comparison.  The V Caps just do everything "right",  warmth, weight, speed, liquid.....whereas the Rels could have a tendency to get a bit on the shrill side with some material.  

The Caps are on the pricey side, but then again the gains in listening pleasure are worth much more than what the caps cost.  

These take the Already incredible amps to an even more incredible level of realism.

Definately worth getting out the soldering iron for!!

Dave

Brett wrote on 02/17/07 at 09:36:35:


You may wish to price a 2mf v-cap before getting excited about changing out the Hovlands in your Parkers.

I think you'll be out around $600 bucks for the pleasure of a pair of those babies

Karl

Dave,

Can you be more specific about the caps?  Are we talking about coupling caps or the cathode resistor bypass cap?  

Got a picture?

Steve

Dave,

I like your tag line!  

Randy -
Sent a message to Dave about specifics and maybe making a "semi" group buy. Haven't heard from him. Guess I should have sent it to you.
Always looking to save a buck  [smiley=grngreedy.gif]
Joel

Corey wrote on 02/24/07 at 02:52:55:


???????????????????????

MikeW wrote on 02/24/07 at 03:17:59:


Corey is referring to the link I posted above. It's a cap review from a Chinese rag.

Brett wrote on 02/24/07 at 03:25:33:

Thanks

allright guys upgraditis is back
i have mundorf silver gold and love them, but you know things have to be changed every now and then
anyone interested in a group buy, price drops significantly if we reach a certain number


f

lightmaster wrote on 02/27/07 at 19:30:25:


Sure, I need 4 for my 2 selects

gooooood
if tone is in we are at 12 pieces!
if we get 12 more they will cost 35 dollars each, quite reasonable in my book.

so c'mon don't be shy my friends i know you want it

and yes the value is 0.1uf

f

I'm in for 4. Who knows, images of my 34I are dancing through my head also.
Joel

lightmaster wrote on 02/27/07 at 19:30:25:


I'd be interested in 2 for my select.

--e

lightmaster wrote on 02/27/07 at 22:36:13:


You would be correct ..... and every word he says about these caps is exactly what I'm hearing .....  :)

Randy

I'll take a pair for my Zen C. I'm assuming these will work in a C as well as a Select. If incorrect, I hope someone will let me know.

Thanks, Miles

All right guys, that's where we are:

Francesco 2 caps
stone_of_tone 2 caps? Please confirm tone.
Rap 4 caps
Mr Content 4
Joel 4
Erimille 2
Doorman 2
Miles 2
Veryoldcat 2

Total so far 24! We need one more person! Only

I am going to do something I am going to contact chris at v-cap.com and see if we can get an arrangement for shipping individually. I know he charges 10 dollars for US shipping and 15 for overseas, that’s a lot! A regular jiffy bag rolled is safe enough for shipping those are not tubes, and they are extremely small and light. Posting and bag should be no more then few dollars both nationally and internationally. I suppose companies like to charge a premium for handling and shipment. If you a regular on e-bay you know that many make their money on that rather the the product (look at anything sent from china  for example) not v-cap.com case, but we can save something there i guess. let's see


Anyway lets see what Joel has in mind, any more ideas?

One thing that might be possible is to pay individually to the company and have all the caps sent to one person that then would redistribute???

I’ll see what chris  says and report back

f

lightmaster wrote on 02/28/07 at 10:24:50:


I wonder if this groupbuy could include a pair of .47uF caps at a discounted price. If so I'm in for a pair of those. I've been meaning to upgrade the caps in my DAC.

-Brett

Hi all,  I'd like 4 caps for my pair of selects!  Thanks,Tish        P.S.  Does anyone know what size caps my SE34I.2 would use?

Francesco 2 caps
stone_of_tone 2 caps? Please confirm tone.
Rap 4 caps
Mr Content 4
Joel 4
Erimille 2
Doorman 2
Miles 2
Veryoldcat 2
tsingle999    2 cAPS
TISH 4
rock4016   4 Caps

that makes it: 34 caps total! Wow, we might be able to get an even better price, might be.

I'll be back with more info, also regarding brett 0.47uf. By the way in what position do you want to use those?

Never mind my thought, checked it out and it's not such a great idea. Make sure Chris knows what we are doing, I know it is straight forward pricing on the website, but a $12 differential on this number of caps adds up. That said I'm still in for 4.
Joel

Greetings all,

Just a thought.  I enjoy saving a few bucks as much as the next guy, but I ran the math on this and I'm not sure this group buy thing is all that cost effective .....  :-?

Two .1uf caps cost 96.00 + shipping
Two .1uf caps at the +25 price cost 72.00 + shipping

So ..... you are saving 24.00 ..... less the extra shipping costs to reship from the "contact buyer".

I know that the thought of paying 50.00 for a capacitor rubs many folks the wrong way ..... but these things really are worth the money.  After hearing them in my Select, I would have gladly paid 3 times the price to get the same results .....  :)

When you hold one in your hand and feel the "heft" compared to other caps, it gives you a pretty good idea that there is something special here.  The folks at VH Audio put a lot of effort into developing these beauties and I don't begrudge them a decent profit ..... especially considering the results .....  8-)

I would hate to see my friends here on the forum "fart around" and end up paying a higher price in the near future .....  :P

Randy

you might be right randy but here is the math

we are buying 38 caps at 36 each dollars instead of 48 dollars each

1824 +130(post) ---1954 dollars this is the total of all the caps at full price plus shipping


1368 +25 (post to base) = 1393 +60 (post to individuals circa)=1453 this is the total of the caps at reduced price plus shipping to base and re-shipping to individuals.


501 dollars saving total 38 dollars for each couple of caps. you might be right.

what do you guys think

the smaller group alternative is an option to simplify things, i am in for that too... if people prefers


and by the way is true, Steve did not consider that but the grading system based on number of posts was a certain guarantee as to commitment to the decware spirit trustworthiness i mean
the new 3 stars systems completely kills that comfort factor, at least with the less well know members.

Rap wrote on 03/01/07 at 19:22:21:


Howdy Rap,

Dave and I would like to thank you for the excellent suggestion ..... but think we will pass at this time .....

Randy

tsingle999 wrote on 03/03/07 at 19:49:33:


I'm afraid cryoing caps is not a good idea, they tend to explode

I took Joel up on his offer and we created our own 'mini' group buy. Matt

Been busy (overly) and haven't kept up here.

Do we still have a living concern, or is it every s/he for her/himself?

Karl

Hey If I haven't missed the boat already I would like a pair,please and thanks Dan

these are back in production!: they look interesting

http://www.blackdahlia.com/tipindex/Tip_26/tip_26.html

you'll get them here:
http://www.vacuumtube.com/VTV%20Ultratonecaps.htm

anybody tried them?


f

well guys
i waited and waited and then acted and bought 4 caps, two v-caps and 2 audio note silver foil (if you think v-caps are expensive have a look at the AN silver!!! crazy

bottom line they are both well worth the price (if your system is ready for them!).

love the v-caps in the amp (really special caps these v-cap, everything said about them is true!)
but the AN silver are the ticket in the dac, IMHO have an advantage on the v-cap in that position, tried both, AN silver have just magic HF exstension and musicality

ohh well took them out and they are now "cooking" in my radio for the required 300-400 hours before being definitely installed, i'll try both of them in the two positions to see if my preferences have changed at that stage.

f

mmm,

(Just to keep the idea floating, and not having looked under the Taboo hood), I'll offer an opinion that you could take the bottom off the Taboo chassis, and notice two film caps symmetrically placed between the driver tube and output tubes of similar value. It probably also is close to a .1uf signal cap like the se84cs, by statistics.

Again, I'm not a Taboo expert, so you gotta take a look in there to be sure.

Karl

lightmaster wrote on 03/15/07 at 21:52:45:


Interesting that in the first link (article from 2001) they are priced at $20 for .1uf, and at the second link they are now priced at $65 for .1uf.  I wish my pay would have more than tripled in six years!

Dave

I've heard of no issues with the vcaps fitting in (Dave Dutill started the thread, and quite a few others have installed them).

I have a nice shiny new pair of these sitting on the kitchen table and haven't gotten around to installing them, but I have as yet heard of no space or installation issues, except to be careful of bending the lead right at the entrance to the end of the cap, for fear of overstressing the lead to foil connection on the inside (the lead is pretty stiff)

I'm going *cold turkey* and just put em in there, and let em break themselves in au naturelle, as to having heard they aren't so bad fresh out of the box. I'm actually kinda curious to hear if there really IS such a huge break in issue.

Karl

A silly question - did you check the fuse?

That happened to me when a rectifier went.

Hi Shreekant

Be prepared for good things to happen right from the start.  Good thing is, they get better and better with time.

A mod truly worthy of these fine lil amps!!

Got it fixed about 25 hours ago, and this stuff is impressive. Someone mentioned it is the best 100 $ tweek and I don't think anybody can dispute that. With the promise it shows after 25 hours , I can't wait for the 200 For those who are still thinking about it, I feel you should just go ahead.

Thanks Karl for all your help.


shreekant

I have had the VCaps for a while now but I don't usually sit down to listen to music on a regular basis.  Therefore I have no idea how many hours they have one them.

Was listening last night and I have to say, the system sounds good.  The VCaps are obviously wearing in and are becoming quite smooth.

Simon

Hmmm... you've made me doubt now. Was going to go for the V-cap but maybe my system can't take the extra clarity? FWIW, a dealer hear swears by Hovlands and even though some people think they can sound muddy, the are actually warmer and more musical. Would be interested in your thoughts...

Which ones the grid stoppers?

JJ

OK, I think I have about 50 hours on the V-CAP now. I think it has broken in nicely so far. I am getting full spectrum from high to low frequency and overall shouting/harshness seems to be gone quite a bit.

However, it is a mixed bag expereince of sort for me so far.

Pros - very clear and clean sounding lik someone removed some layers of haze off the glass window. resolution is better with slightly more details coming out, and separation between the instrusments are easier to hear. Overall it really cleans up things which allows more details to come out.

Cons - the creamy mid range is not there, it is "too hi-fi" sounding for me, making my tube amp sounds more like a solid state. Tube "euphonic sound" is replaced with more "neutral sounds".

I think this is the cap to get if you want real clean sounding cap that extracts as much details out as possible. But I am not sure if this my cup of tea. I think I prefer Jensen and other PIO cap sounds that has smooth wonderful mids?

(Test Track - The Very Best of Diana Krall CD - Track 14 - Little Girl Blue - The cello on this track used to sound very real prior to the V-cap, but now it sounds cleaner, but it does not feel like the real instrument is being played in the room. Feels more like a really nice recording is being played very cleanly)

I will report back once there is discernable change happen moving forward. I am hoping the mid range will be warmer and nicer as it breaks in further.

I've tried Russian PIOs and Vitamin Qs as well on other kit amps thta I've built. They are not in the same league as the V-Cap. Russian PIOs that I bought from eBay do have warm sound, however, it is no where as clean and clear sounding as the V-cap. The highs are rolled off and overall presentation is a bit smeary.

I do think V-cap is a really good capacitor, the best (and the most expensive) I've tried in terms of performance. But I am not sure if I like the sound signature of Teflon caps so far (assuming v-cap is typical of teflon caps but better than the most).

According to Eddie, these takes quite a long to get the creamy mid range sound out of them. So I will wait until 200 hour mark.

Overall, this made the Zen select a very revealing amp. You would hear all sort of issues with your CD players and sources if they are not up to par. I am not sure if my Decware Sony 685 is up to par or not. We will wait and see.

OK, I have about 100 hours on the V-CAP now. I don't think the signature changed too much from 50 hours to 100 hours (overall balance is the same), but the sound has mellowed out defintely. I don't cringe as much as I used to.  :o

At this point I can say it is defintely better than Musicap in every respect, except for the midrange. V-CAP sounds less forward (less mid) so far. The details and clean sound of V-CAP is really nice.

I will report back around 200 hours.

Hey JonJin,

Have you read this review? http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf

(note that the above review is hosted on V-CAP site, so don't take everything at face value, although the review was published by a Chinese hi-fi magazine and not V-CAP). According to the review, they were worried about Jensen's rated life as it is only a few hundred hours and going down from that point.

Class F (No Class ) - xicon, Solen PPE/SM, Jupiter BeesWax
Class E - Rusian teflon caps, North Creek Music/Crescendo
Class D - Mundorf/Supreme, Supreme/Gold/Silver, AuriCap and Musicap
Class C - Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil, Jensen PIO Copper
Class B - REL/Exotica TFT
Class A - V-CAP TFTF and Audio Note Silver

I would wait for your current modification (ASC and Tantalium) first and see how it turns out. Let me know how that changes the sound on your system.  Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil might be the one you want to try out rather than Jensen, if you want to go with PIO route.

Hi Crazy Eel,

I also fiddled with the cathode bypass cap on the output stage. Instead of taking it out right, I put a switch in it, so I can flip it back and forth to see how it differs. I’ve noticed that the non Select version also does not have this bypass cap.

When I remove the bypass cap, the sounds do get quieter, so I do have to turn it up a bit to compare it apples to apples. The sound gets a bit lighter and airier to me. It has less slam to the music, but more clear sounding. Slam changes in the similar ways the bias switch on the front of the select does. One gets more bass slam while the other less so.

However, I do like the sound with the bypass cap in the place. I wonder if I can upgrade the cap on this thing to something that is a bit better?

Sorry to hear that... hopefully it'll continue to improve.

I have now changed the 4 grid stoppers to Tantalums and the effects are not subtle. Here is what I wrote my regular UK hifi forum -

"But honestly, I put them in without expecting any or little difference, and when I turned it on for the first time, I thought... yup, more foo. But after running overnight, it's actually quite amazing. I can play my music much much louder now without any fatigability. I would say it has a more 'realistic' tone and improved my lower mid range (snare drums more realistic). The overall tone is warmer and much sweeter. Also it has improved the imaging. The music fills the room more, in particular front to back. It's like having good Mullard valves in..."

Thanks again for the tip... will now think of changing the PSU caps...

JJ

Elna Cerafines? True, not much out there...

Still waiting to hear the latest update from johnny_boy  ;)

JJ

This will be probably my last report. The net is I prefer Hovland Musicap over V-CAP.

I decded to put back Musicap to see how it would compare. Immeidately I could tell there is slight loss of focus, but a lot more musicallity. My "toes started to tap" again with the music which was completely lacking with the V-cap. Then I started to doubt myself again thinking just the change is what I think is better.

So I put both V-CAP and Musicap in place with a switch in between. I auditioned both with the same set of songs switching it back and forth. V-CAP mid sound is actually SMOOTHER than Musicap. I think it has slightly tighter bass, and it has a bit clearer focus and more air between the instruments. I don't think it has any more details, although it sounds harmonically cleaner, so it appears to have show details.

However, where Musicap wins is on shear musicality and realism. The acoustic instruments and voice sounds more real to me with Musicap vs. the V-Cap. It also sounds richer and more real. The cello that I mentioned in the previous thread sounds real again with Musicap. The Fender Strat on Twin Reverb souns like Strat/Twin Reverb, rather than sounding like a good recording of it.

I think it can be summarized this way - the Musicap is more harmonically richer sounding. It sounds lushier.

If you are familiar with how American pianos tend to sound vs. European pianos, you will get the distinction between Musicap and V-Caps.  Generally speaking American pianos such as Steinway tend to sound very harmonically rich sounding. It sounds full and powerful. On the other hand European pianos, such as Bosendorfer, tend to sound more focused, delicate and ring like a bell. Sepratons between the nots are easier to hear with the European pianos. Different pianists prefer different piano. In my case, I prefer Steinway sound.

In that samw way, I prefer Musicap over V-Cap. It being harmnically richer means it would also have less focus (like the piano example above), but it is the sound that I prefer. The sound is richer and more real especially on acoustic instruments  and vocals.

I am going to leave the V-CAP in place for a while, as some songs sounds better with it (more modern rock recordings) and the mids are more creamy and smother sounding. I think I am at about 250 hours. I will give it some more time, but I am not expecting too much change at this point.

If you are using the Teflon version of the V-cap, you will need at least 400 hours of continous burn-in, if not more, before it starts to smooth out. 250 hours is just past the half way mark, so you will continue to hear some bad stuff for a while longer. I also prefer in my Audio Horizons preamp the Hovland Musicap, although I am considering trying the Mundorf Silver Oil in the near future. The Musicap does have some issues, but it does have this "breath of life" that is very pleasing to the ear.