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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1686416279 Message started by filthnoise on 06/10/23 at 17:57:59 |
Title: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by filthnoise on 06/10/23 at 17:57:59 I've been very much enjoying my new UFO amp with a pair of single driver Omega Alnico towers. The soundstage is expansive, detailed and extrememly pleasing to the ear. I notice however, on certain recordings, that there's reduced bass in my listening position, compared to other areas of the room, and I'm wondering what tips you all might have to help with this. It's clear that this is not an issue of speaker or amp capability, based on what I've heard the combo do with certain recordings. I realize I'm dealing with a room issue, most likely. My speakers are approx 30" from the back wall, about 8 ft apart and my listening position is about 9 ft from each speaker, in a triangle formation. I have them toed in, pointing about a 12" outwards of each ear. I've played around with speaker positioning a little bit but it hasn't totally solved anything for me. When I stand up, I get fuller bass. Certain spots around the room get fuller bass, as well. Any ideas on this? I'd prefer not to add a subwoofer if I can avoid it. I'm also close to receiving a ZRock2, which I'm not sure will address this issue or not. Thanks! |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by Lon on 06/10/23 at 18:55:21 I find in my main room it's sound-staging or tone--I can get the best of one or the other, have never been able to maximize or optimize both entirely. I've found a good balance in between. In your shoes I would try "toe-ing" out the speakers a bit. I have mine actually with no toe-in or toe-out which works best for me, though it does diminish sound-staging. I choose tone over sound-stage. The ZROCK2 will help a LOT. I think you'll be very pleased when you have that in the system. |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by filthnoise on 06/10/23 at 19:02:55 Thanks Lon! |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by JOMAN on 06/10/23 at 19:34:03 I've had Omega S3HOXRS and now the Omega Custom Vintage HO (dual 8" drivers). The amp is the UFO25 and with the S3HOXRS I had the ZROCK2 but with the Vintage HO and a step up in the source I no longer needed it and the results were better without it, even the bottom end! You're dealing with more than one limiting factor. I'll focus this on my experience with the Omega combinations more so than the room as my experience has been with an untreated room. In the new house it will be treated, for sure! I think that the ZRock will make a difference with single driver Omega speakers or small dual driver Omega speakers and may be all you will need, unless you begin to hooked on the transparency of the system and begin to explore the possibilities, which is what happened to me. The Omegas are very transparent as is the UFO probably more than you realize at this time. What you are hearing is a combination of the room and the system faithfully revealing the limitations. Once you get the ZRock, try some room treatment. Even a little can make a huge difference. If that is not the direction that you end up going in then you'll be looking at a step up in the source and/or speakers, or a step up in the source and a fast sub. That's what I did and the results have been beyond expectations so much so that I'm looking at another source step up and open baffles with 2 15" drivers each. I would suggest that you do some room treatment and the ZRock. May be all that you need and be happy with. |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by CAJames on 06/10/23 at 19:50:52 Quote:
That's a classic symptom of a standing wave in your room. Your system is reproducing plenty of bass, but you can't hear it (at your listening position) because of the acoustics in your room. Adding bass traps to the corners will probably help a lot, and adding diffusion will help too. Room treatment isn't really my area of expertise, but there is a whole forum devoted to it so I would suggest poking around there. P.S. Here is a paper by Steve that is an excellent introduction: https://www.decware.com/paper39.htm |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by will on 06/10/23 at 20:50:20 For improving the room barring much treatment, I too find speaker placement really matters. Like Lon's positioning suggestion, seems important to find speaker placement that reduces frequencies building up or cancelling, while also allowing a more complete soundstage. As James suggests, your description of the bassier areas in your room are likely this, either cancellation or build up depending on how certain very long wave bass frequencies overlap. Also, lots of rooms build up bass in boundary areas. Anyway, I threw out conventions also in my long and lean room, the speakers in the center area of the long wall and ±5 feet apart tweeter to tweeter, and ±9 feet tweeter to my ears. Not a classical setup, my speakers also are actually toed out maybe a 1/4".... I have some room treatment, and my room was made well for natural diffusion and bass absorption being irregular adobes with plaster... no surface of the walls flat and plumb. Also the whole ceiling seems to be a sort of inadvertent diaphragmatic absorber with overlapping layers of tar paper above the rough boards that have gaps between, and on top of that 12" of fiberglass, then a fairly tight airspace. This is not a very-low bass absorber I am guessing though, as I still need to attenuate low bass in this room and system. Also, my diffusion is not calculated, but really good when all is right. Bringing me back an idea of trying to set things up in a room as well as possible without a lot of careful treatment. A theory is to make the driver's reflective bounces off walls, floor and ceiling more complex, hopefully causing them to overlap less and limiting cancelation or build up of frequencies. This can help with a more complete frequency range while slowing the reflection's time as they get back to our ears, hopefully reducing smearing and mitigating the direct signal from the driver getting confused by reflected frequencies. As an example, I don't remember it well, but Steve has a drawing somewhere in his white papers (I think it was there?) where he positioned speakers relative to a corner rather than a flat wall. Still out from the walls, but in this arrangement the projection of the sound from the drivers hits angled walls to start, and then continues with lots of other reflections bouncing off also angled walls, the complexity reducing reflective sound overlap (hopefully) and helping those reflected frequencies get to our ear a little more slowly. Don't know your room size or options, but hope this vague outline is useful. But more-or-less as is, aside from playing with toe as Lon suggests, it could be good to try angling the speakers back a bit too, making reflections more complex. In this system/room, as setup, the balances are really good in every way, and the sound stage is deep, wide, and articulate/saturated. |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by Brian on 06/11/23 at 04:55:27 I remember a few years back, Randy of Caintuck on these forums got a lot of success with using fiberglass insulation rolls (still in the plastic wrap) stacked two or three tall in the corners behind the speakers. I believe the thought was that these are working as Bass traps to capture reflected Bass so it can not make cancelation with the Bass coming directly to you from the speaker. You mentioned experimenting with repositioning the speakers; have you tried moving your chair? Perhaps closer to the speakers. As Steve has mentioned recently in his write up on his new horn speaker, you might have success by placing the speaker all the way back so it is resting against the back wall. Will's recommendation of tilting the speaker back so it points a little toward the ceiling is a very good idea; although it is usually more needed with speakers that place a woofer near the floor where a comb filter effect is set up with interference with the floor. A few ideas from an uneducated guesser. But maybe they are helpful. Brian |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by Tony on 06/11/23 at 14:14:53 Brian, placing fiberglass insulation rolls in corners as bass traps struck me as creative and economical. Do you know anyone that has tried that? |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by Sean on 06/11/23 at 16:47:55 I've not used fiberglass, I used Fire and Sound mineral wool batts from Home Depot. I put two layers floor to ceiling in each front corner, a single layer in the one back corner, the other corner is open to a staircase. I've read it's about using as much material as you possibly can in the front corners. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-R13-Thermafiber-Fire-and-Sound-Guard-Plus-Mineral-Wool-Insulation-Batt-15-in-x-47-in-1196588/319880476 I wonder if doing a "sub crawl" variant would work. For those who haven't heard about this method, one idea of how to find a good spot for a subs to place the sub in the listening spot, put on a test track and crawl around the room to find where the bass sounds the best. That's where you place the sub. filthnoise isn't using a sub and this is where my "wondering" comes in, perhaps crawl around the floor and where the bass sounds good, place a "bass trap" there. Use towels, pillows, blankets, couch cushions, etc to experiment. Or perhaps the opposite, place a trap where the bass doesn't sound good as that's where the waves are intersecting? |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by Brian on 06/12/23 at 04:29:00 Hello, Tony. I have not been able to remember if any one other than Randy tried that form of trap. The low cost is what made them appealing to me. But I do not have a high fidelity system, so I have not tried them. Brian |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by Shenanigan3 on 06/21/23 at 11:10:28 Thanks for great support, guys. ----------------------- bad time simulator |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by 4krow on 06/21/23 at 23:08:44 Just excellent LR. It is mesmerizing to watch these form, and why? I get it but I don't get it. Now if the tiles are round, what happens? Same thing? Different pattern? |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by will on 06/22/23 at 02:45:38 Nice post Raven. Thanks. |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by Kamran on 06/22/23 at 03:13:45 Good to hear from ya LR—thanks for sharing your pearls of wisdom. The utilization of thoughtful room treatment tends to be underrated in terms of the immense value/benefit it provides. I’ve been addressing it gradually with the help of GIK acoustics and planning some additional treatment in the next month or so. |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by Ghostship on 06/22/23 at 11:15:10 I know you said in your OP that you wished for a solution without adding a subwoofer but...I strongly recommend reconsidering. I fully agree that traps are great for augmenting bass sq in-room, but may not specifically fix your problem at your listening position. I also agree that even the slightest change in speaker positioning might fix this problem at your listening position, but this will likely come at the expense of a decrease in staging and imaging. The benefits of a sub are that you can place it anywhere in a room, and you can adjust the phase, volume, and crossover frequency, allowing you to repair room modes easily with the added benefit of an overall increase in fidelity and sq. And, this adjustability allows for future changes in your system and room at any time without additional expense. For me, all three are important and truly helped me dial in my sound. My preferred priority of fixes in my room was: 1- Speaker position, 2- Subs, then 3- Room Treatment. Certainly, your mileage may vary. |
Title: Re: How to Fix Bass Dead Zones in Listening Position Post by maddog07 on 06/23/23 at 17:45:26 some of the best(most useful) information I've ever seen and actually used/experienced was from Dr. Hsu of HSU Reearch subwoofers. In rooms where I had bass problems... I followed his advice and used two subwoofers and was able to solve the problem and smooth out the bass response in the room significantly. It has also been my experience over the past 40 years or so, that sealed box subs are easier to get dialed in(sonically) to the room than ported subs. |
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